Liens and legal issues

[goldstar]

I’m posting this as a point of information so that in the event any of you get yourselves into a situation like I have you’ll know what to do. There’s an unspoken rule that states ANY TIME you get to do electrical work on a commercial job – make sure you have a well written and signed contract.

On November 15, 2017 I began working for a GC wiring what started out as a small amount of electrical work at a renovated tire center (installing a few receptacles and wiring a 3 ton AC unit). At the time the situation didn’t call for a contract and there was no set of plans on which to bid. Well, the job started to grow exponentially and a $5K job grew to a $23.5K job over the course of 3 months (new car lifts, 3 phase air compressor, lighting, etc.). On December 15th I was issued a check for $8K and applied it to the invoices accordingly but continued to do more work through January 2018. On January 11th the GC issued me a check for $15.5K for the balance with the understanding that I would hold the check until the following week when he got paid from the garage owners. Well, next week - led to next week - led to next week until finally it was almost 3 months. I consulted my attorney who advised me to deposit the check.

Within 2 days the check came back NSF. At that point I brought all my documentation to my attorney. He then advised me that bouncing a check for that amount is fraud and we should go after the GC on criminal charges. A day later he came back to me and advised me that he was not able to file criminal charges because that had to be done within 45 days of the date the check was issued.

Now, my next choice is to file a lien on the building (which is being leased by the tire repair company) for the outstanding $15.5K which I have done. It should be noted that in order to do that you would have to file the lien WITHIN 90 DAYS OF THE LAST DAY YOU WORKED ON THE JOB. Luckily, I fit into that time frame.

What does all this mean ? Currently I’m out $15.5 K. The lien will stay attached to the building until the owners decide to sell that building. They will not be able to sell it until the lien is satisfied. That could be next week, next year or 10 years from now.

The long and short of this is – make sure you have a contract. In all fairness you’ll always need to have some trust in the people you work for and that they’ll pay you but, as President Reagan once said “Trust But Verify”. Verify with a contract and get progress payments if you can.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Had you worked for this guy before...

 

[goldstar]

Had you worked for this guy before...

No. We met by chance and I must say he was the nicest guy you could ever meet. We worked well together and had respect for each other. I truly don't know whether he ever got paid from the owners but that's not MY problem. As it turned out, I had to take out a small business loan (which I'll pay back in a few months hopefully) to pay my Fed and State taxes. This is not going to break my bank but who wants to get beat for $15.5 K ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

And did he disappear off the face of the earth? Have you talked to him about this...Sometimes these guys are con artists and sometimes they get beat but you are correct, it is not your problem. He needs to take out the loan- not you

 

[goldstar]

I left for a 2 week vacation on 3/3/18. Before I left he told me not to worry, have a good vacation and if worse comes to worse he would pay me out of his personal account. When I got back I texted him twice - no response. The following day I called and left messages twice - no response. That's when I realized that the BS was flowing and I deposited the check. It wasn't until 4 days later that he texted me and gave me the same BS that he had been giving me all along. Haven't had any communication with him in the last 2 weeks. Hopefully the lien will spark some response.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

That much money I would be knock, knock knocking on the devil's door

 

[goldstar]

That much money I would be knock, knock knocking on the devil's door

I've tried the "nice guy" approach. Should I be knocking with a Louisville Slugger or should I just call "Guido" ?

Granted, I'm annoyed at this but I'm not going to let it eat up my intestines (if you know what I mean). I just wanted to post this for any of our subscribers who don't know or aren't aware of the time limitations regarding criminal action and/or when to file liens.

 

[Coppersmith]

The lien will stay attached to the building until the owners decide to sell that building. They will not be able to sell it until the lien is satisfied. That could be next week, next year or 10 years from now.

I have heard, but I am not sure, that liens in Florida have to be renewed every year and there is a fee to do so.

 

[goldstar]

I have heard, but I am not sure, that liens in Florida have to be renewed every year and there is a fee to do so.

So far it's cost me $1K in legal fees to file the lien (and this is from a friend who is my attorney). I will have to ask him if the lien collects interest on a monthly basis if not paid. That might prompt a faster payment.

 

[Coppersmith]

I've tried the "nice guy" approach. Should I be knocking with a Louisville Slugger or should I just call "Guido" ?

Granted, I'm annoyed at this but I'm not going to let it eat up my intestines (if you know what I mean). I just wanted to post this for any of our subscribers who don't know or aren't aware of the time limitations regarding criminal action and/or when to file liens.

You could also contact a debt collector and let them harass the guy into paying.

 

[Coppersmith]

So far it's cost me $1K in legal fees to file the lien (and this is from a friend who is my attorney). I will have to ask him if the lien collects interest on a monthly basis if not paid. That might prompt a faster payment.

Can you also try to collect attorney's fees?

 

[goldstar]

Can you also try to collect attorney's fees?

Not in the case of lien. Had I been able to file criminal charges that might have been possible.

 

[growler]

On January 11th the GC issued me a check for $15.5K for the balance with the understanding that I would hold the check until the following week when he got paid from the garage owners.

Within 2 days the check came back NSF. At that point I brought all my documentation to my attorney. He then advised me that bouncing a check for that amount is fraud and we should go after the GC on criminal charges.

First off the laws for writing bad checks can be different for each state. I have no idea what your laws are.

I have have been beat out of a little money the same way ( about $1500).

I learned that you should never agree to hold a check for anyone and that you should never accepted more than one check for final payment. It should be one check and state that it's for full final payment. The way it was explained to me was that it's easy to give a person credit without really intending to. If you agree to hold a check then you are giving the person credit.

The next problem you run into is the party that has the account. It's probably a business corporate account. Guess how much stuff that puts in the game?

If I were you I would talk to the business owner and see if the GC got paid. Then start checking to see just who your were really dealing with. I found that the people I was dealing with had more bad checks come through a bank than you would believe. I threatened to sue the bank for leaving an account open just so these crooks could use bad checks ( they agreed to close the account). I might not get any money but I would go after his GC license.

 

[goldstar]

My thinking is that I should wait for the lien to be filed and completed first before I do anything else. I'll have to ask my attorney if I should reach out to the GC or the corporate office of the tire service company. But, thanks for your input anyway.:thumbsup:

 

[cdslotz]

The lien is pretty much useless because as long as the current owner doesn't sell, you get nothing.
Also, your GC will probably file bankruptcy which means you are last on the list to get anything, if there is anything to get.
I would go the criminal route on this guy

 

[kwired]

Having a contract won't guarantee you will get paid. Details in the contract may make it easier for a judge to make a decision when it comes to litigation.

A judgement still doesn't guarantee you will get paid, it is just one more tool to help get paid.

 

[ramsy]

..The long and short of this is – make sure you have a contract. In all fairness you’ll always need to have some trust in the people you work for and that they’ll pay you but, as President Reagan once said “Trust But Verify”. Verify with a contract and get progress payments if you can.

Do you need a contract to have license board attach GC’s Bond.

 

[electrofelon]

They will not be able to sell it until the lien is satisfied. That could be next week, next year or 10 years from now.

I have heard, but I am not sure, that liens in Florida have to be renewed every year and there is a fee to do so.

Can you also try to collect attorney's fees?

Not in the case of lien. Had I been able to file criminal charges that might have been possible.

The lien is pretty much useless because as long as the current owner doesn't sell, you get nothing.

What many people dont realize about mechanics liens is that the point is not really to just wait out till they sell or try to borrow against the property. Liens can, and actually have to before too long, be enforced or foreclosed. This means that if a judge decides in your favor, the county or other jurisdiction will foreclose on the property to pay your debt. You have to enforce the lien during its active period. It can sometimes be renewed but it varies from state to state. Whether you can collect attorney's fees also varies from state to state. Some say you can, some say you cant, some leave it up to the discretion of the judge.

Generally when you go after someone legally, you throw everything at them. There are other options besides a lien. I currently have a suit against someone. We are going after them for 4 things: Foreclosing on the lien, breach of contract, fraud, and unjust enrichment.

Remember just because you dont have a written contract, that doesnt mean you cant go after them under the contract law. Oral contracts are perfectly acceptable, although granted potentially harder to get a judge to see it your way if it comes down to "he said/she said."

 

[Fulthrotl]

What many people dont realize about mechanics liens is that the point is not really to just wait out till they sell or try to borrow against the property. Liens can, and actually have to before too long, be enforced or foreclosed. This means that if a judge decides in your favor, the county or other jurisdiction will foreclose on the property to pay your debt. You have to enforce the lien during its active period. It can sometimes be renewed but it varies from state to state. Whether you can collect attorney's fees also varies from state to state. Some say you can, some say you cant, some leave it up to the discretion of the judge.

now, in the case of the OP, the bond is probably only $3k.

claim it. it's $3k, and doesn't need any attorney costs.
it also hangs the asss hats license.

he will contact you and offer to pay to release the claim.
he has to pay you all of the money, not just $3k. if he
defaults, you get the $3k from his bonding company,
and if that happens, he has to repay the bonding company,
who will most likely dump him.

do it tomorrow morning. i have had to do it once. i filed,
and the next morning, the notice of claim went out.
half an hour later, the guy called to pay up.
wanted to know when the claim would be released.

i said after the check cleared. i got all of it but $500,
and it wasn't worth bothering about. i called the bonding
rep, told him, and said let's park this. done deal. took two
days.

he has a new bonding company now. they dropped him.

 

[goldstar]

Remember just because you don't have a written contract, that doesn't mean you can't go after them under the contract law. Oral contracts are perfectly acceptable, although granted potentially harder to get a judge to see it your way if it comes down to "he said/she said."

In this particular case there was no "official" written contract. However, all the work was broken down into several different jobs, backed up by individual invoices (16 totaling $23,500.00) along with a periodic journal indicating what work I did and when I did it. The invoices and journal combined make up what would be considered an "implied" contract. If I had to go before a judge I can't imagine him not seeing it my way. The only thing the GC could say is that he didn't authorize me to do the work. But that won't hold water because he gave me a check for the balance of $15500.00 which ended up bouncing.