Light box used as j-box

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Buck Parrish

Buck Parrish

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My helper says that you can no longer run the hot wire in romex to the light box then pull one romex down to the switch phaseing the white black as the hot and the other as the switch leg.
He say's the neutal has to go with it because of a magnetic field.
I told him he's crazy.
I'm right aren't I "he's crazy"
 
buckofdurham said:
My helper says that you can no longer run the hot wire in romex to the light box then pull one romex down to the switch phaseing the white black as the hot and the other as the switch leg.
He say's the neutal has to go with it because of a magnetic field.
I told him he's crazy.
I'm right aren't I "he's crazy"
Click to expand...

Never listen to a helper. :grin:
 
I usually like to tell them on the night shift when it is daylight savings time they have to work the extra hour for free because the computor will not see it at payroll.
 
In a switch loop, the current going to the switch is in the conductor beside the current returning from the switch.

The magnetic fields are equal and opposite and cancel each other.

Tell the "helper" that and then ask him to explain what adding a neutral to that switch loop does that makes the magnetic field more zero than cancelled. ;)
 
He is trying to learn,somehow he got misled.Ask how he thinks we wire switches on comercial jobs ?Best yet invite him to the forum and you might have a better helper.
 
I seem to remember something about a proposal to 2008 to enforce the neutral to be run with switch loops. I don't think that got very far. Anybody else remember this?

Could this be what your helper was thinking about.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I seem to remember something about a proposal to 2008 to enforce the neutral to be run with switch loops. I don't think that got very far. Anybody else remember this?

Could this be what your helper was thinking about.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the very same thing.

I will look at the ROP later. :smile:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I seem to remember something about a proposal to 2008 to enforce the neutral to be run with switch loops. I don't think that got very far. Anybody else remember this?

Could this be what your helper was thinking about.
Click to expand...



Perhaps, But you would have to cap it off at the switch box.
 
Dennis you remembered correctly, here is the panel statement.


Panel Statement: The proposed requirement is a design issue and is the
responsibility of the installer, and the associated cost should be a choice of the
consumer, not the code panel. See 90.1(B) and (c)
Switches with grounded circuit connections should only be used where a
grounded conductor is present. These devices should not be connected to
equipment grounding conductors per Part VI of Article 250.
The panel agrees that this is a concern but that a more appropriate solution
would be to require manufacturers of products needing additional grounded
conductors to provide appropriate, clearly visible warnings and instructions on
their packaging and installation instructions.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 6 Negative: 4
Click to expand...
 
iwire said:
Dennis you remembered correctly, here is the panel statement.
Click to expand...

With all the new switching devices today. I could imagine their are people cheating and useing the grounding wire for a neutral.
That must have been the panels concern.
 
I was just going to pipe in: If I remember it right, it was the alarm industry guys trying to push that one. Makes the upgrade of x-10 or similar devices into existing switch locations go better if they find a neutral in there. Now as an extra bonus thought- How many alarm installers do you think are going to know how to use the right neutral wire in a switch box if there are more than one present?
 
macmikeman said:
How many alarm installers do you think are going to know how to use the right neutral wire in a switch box if there are more than one present?
Click to expand...
Alarm installers and line voltage don't mix well.

Years ago, when I was a helper, we went to a house that was having some issues with the alarm system. I remember finding two black wires under the load screw of an outside-light switch, and the white of the second cable was simply capped.

I was told that the alarm guys had added the feature of turning on the outside light when the alarm trips, so I looked in the alarm panel. They had the other end of the white capped here, too, but the black was attached to an added relay.

The other relay contact received power from the alarm's supply circuit. I decided to check the voltage across the open contacts, and read 240v with the light switch on. If the alarm trips while the light is already on, they got a line-to-line short.

What they should have done, and what I did, was to use the white wire and create a 2-wire switch loop, isolating the alarm supply and lighting circuits from one another. I was amazed that nobody ever discovered the problem before.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Thanks Bob, I am glad I am not totally losing it, YET.
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Odd that most folks you have chosen for your avatar have passed. How old are you? Should I ask your wife?:wink:
 
al hildenbrand said:
In a switch loop, the current going to the switch is in the conductor beside the current returning from the switch.

The magnetic fields are equal and opposite and cancel each other.

Tell the "helper" that and then ask him to explain what adding a neutral to that switch loop does that makes the magnetic field more zero than cancelled. ;)
Click to expand...
Make sure he gets this. I had to explain this about 6X in a row before I finally got the light to dawn on someone last week. They did not understand field canceling concept. They wanted to run a 14-2 piece of romex for the travelers between two three-way switches. They could not understand how a neutral or a return wire could have the same canceling effect. They were also struggling with the concept that a neutral is a current carrying conductor and kept calling it "ground". I think they finally got it.

Believe it or not, it was utility linemen performing electrical work for friends. These guys can be so irritating because their friends think they are electrical experts because they can hang a transformer. It drives me up the wall sometimes because they are in tight with the AHJ and get away with some of the stupidest stuff.
 
mivey said:
Believe it or not, it was utility linemen performing electrical work for friends.
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Those guys think only line conductors and the ground carry electricity. They only see the hot wires.

I've personally heard more than one POCO guy insist that 'proper ground rods' prevent open-neutral damage.
 
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