live systems...?

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mdshunk said:
I'll only do hot work on the big stuff indoors where an arc flash study has been done. The facilities where you absolutely have to do hot work have mostly all done arc flash studies by now. This dictates the PPE and any maintenance GFP settings that are to be used. For outside work, there is a long history of the PPE that needs to be worn and the tools that need to be used at various voltage levels.
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Marc,

Thats great that the facilites that you work in already have the Arc flash studies done. I wish the places I worked at wer more proactive in this way. Most the time they look at me funny when I say that the panel should be shut down.

Bob is right if we all get on board with the requirements of 70E there should be no problem maintaining work.

Joe
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Yes we often could do this after hours,weekends,etc..Problem is doing so now pushes up the bid due to overtime and often the customer needing to have some extra staff when they would have been closed.Also we now have one man standing at the panel to shut it off and turn it on as we retrofit some 200 fixtures or whatever else.Those numbers will make you the high bid and no work.OSHA cares less about the cost.Not saying they are wrong just that it drives prices so high the job is cancelled.
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Another good reason to have a HLR/GLR type fuse at each ballast
 
drbond24 said:
This sounds strange to me, but I just heard a rumor that something was changing in 2008 that would effect working on live systems. Our sales department called me to ask what reference in the new NEC prohibited working on energized systems. I told them I had heard of no such thing and anyway, if there were going to be a requirement like that it would be in NFPA 70E, not 70. Either way, I told them I'd put a feeler out, so here it is. Anybody have input, or I am correct in thinking that the salespeople are crazy? They're marketing an ASD/VFD connector and seem to think that this alleged reference would make our connector more marketable.
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Make sure your company handbook has language in it about not working on energized circuits
 
I can remember when I first got back into the tradei would not go near a live panel. But now that I am more experienced and "know what I am doing" I work them hot quite a bit. :roll: Very unnecessary and not very smart. Certainly not worth the risk. One thing I am adamant about with anyone I am working with is that there is zero pressure from me to work anything live. We (as a trade) do it out of "comfort level" and customer convenience, but as Bob and others have alluded to, maybe that will change.
 
iwire said:
Jim you bring up real problems.

The fact is if we all told our customers we have to kill it to do it then the work would not be lost. ..... but I know we got a long way to go before that happens.

I am presently in a lucky situation, I am assigned at a building that has a tight safety policy, if I violate OSHA rules I will likely be replaced. I run conduits to the panel and then a shut down is planed to cut them into the panel.

I understand this is presently not the norm, most businesses want it done now and cheap. Hopefully this will start to change.
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There are many facilities that are like this however it is not for your safety - do not be fooled - they want that panel shut down because of what may happen if you attempt live work and make a mistake taking down a critical circuit or perhaps tripping something ahead of it

do you have to wear a hot suit just for a an exploritory assessment ??

it is such a drag but ask the few unlucky souls that got burned badly by an arc flash just by removing the dead front - conditions were just perfect to ruin your day and perhaps life
 
iwire said:
Jim you bring up real problems.

The fact is if we all told our customers we have to kill it to do it then the work would not be lost. ..... but I know we got a long way to go before that happens.

I am presently in a lucky situation, I am assigned at a building that has a tight safety policy, if I violate OSHA rules I will likely be replaced. I run conduits to the panel and then a shut down is planed to cut them into the panel.

I understand this is presently not the norm, most businesses want it done now and cheap. Hopefully this will start to change.
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We work in the same type of places. We install troughs above all new panels now to eliminate how many times panel needs to be opened when adding conduits and CKT's. Now we can install conduit, pull wires, do field terms, and then open panel only once for final term.
 
Tori said:
There are many facilities that are like this however it is not for your safety - do not be fooled -
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Wow, earth breaking news. :roll: :grin:

It has to do with insurance, OSHA and production....but either way it gets me home safe.
 
jrannis said:
Make sure your company handbook has language in it about not working on energized circuits
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Our handbook doesn't cover electrical safety. I was assigned the task of writing some company electrical safety guidlines (leaning heavily on NFPA 70E) a few months ago, but after only a day or two the task was cancelled. I think they realized that they'd need to be buying PPE and training a bunch of people (i.e. spending money) so the plan was trashed.

This is the same company whose official drug use policy is "Employees will not use illegal drugs in any way that interferes with performing their job duties." In other words we don't care if you're a user, just don't do it while you're physically at work.

Obviously, we've got some serious ground to cover on the safety front. I work for a privately owned family business and the phrase "we've always done it that way" is heavily used here.
 
drbond24 said:
Our handbook doesn't cover electrical safety. I was assigned the task of writing some company electrical safety guidlines (leaning heavily on NFPA 70E) a few months ago, but after only a day or two the task was cancelled. I think they realized that they'd need to be buying PPE and training a bunch of people (i.e. spending money) so the plan was trashed.

This is the same company whose official drug use policy is "Employees will not use illegal drugs in any way that interferes with performing their job duties." In other words we don't care if you're a user, just don't do it while you're physically at work.

Obviously, we've got some serious ground to cover on the safety front. I work for a privately owned family business and the phrase "we've always done it that way" is heavily used here.
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I think they have passed the ignorance stage and are now in the negligence arena.
 
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