Location of breakers/panelboards

[warrenwaldrop]

I am trying to determine whether my thinking is correct. I have a five story office building with a central electrical room on each floor, and a main electrical room on the first floor. The occupancy for the building will be multiple tenants on each floor.

The electrical inspector is stating that I have to have an electrical panel that is accessible to each tenant, since there is not a maintenance person(s) on site. The building will have maintenance personnel that will be on call and will respond in a short amount of time. The buidling manager and the maintenance personnel will be the only ones that have keys to the electrical rooms.

It has always been my opinion that NEC Article 240.24(B) exception #1 allows the installation as I have indicated as long as the electrical service and electrical maintenance is provided by the building management. The part of the Article that I guess that is holding up the Inspector is the part where it says that "under continuous building management supervision", it is my opinion that since the building maintenance personnel are the only ones with keys then the electrical service, etc is under continuous building maintenance supervision.

What am I missing?

 

[petersonra]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

what you are missing is that who wants to wait 3 or 4 hours for the maint guy to come and reset a cb?

 

[warrenwaldrop]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

Originally posted by petersonra:
what you are missing is that who wants to wait 3 or 4 hours for the maint guy to come and reset a cb?

So you are saying that it is a requirement that each tenant space has to have a panelboard?

 

[steve66]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

Exception #1 only applies to overcurrent devices serving more than one occupancy.

Each tenant needs to have access to their own branch circuit breakers. Nothing prevents one tenant from having access to another tenants breakers (although it may not be the most desireable thing).

Steve

 

[guesseral]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

240.24 B Exc#1 refers to service overcurrent devices and feeder overcurrent devices, not branch circuit overcurrent devices. It is standard practice to locate meter and disconnect for a tennant space at a common location and the space panel in the tenant space. As a tenant you really wouldn't want to wait to reset a 20A rec breaker would you!

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

So just give every tenant a key.Problem solved.Hand inspector a doughnut

 

[iwire]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

It seems it is up to the inspector or AHJ to decide what constitutes continuous building management supervision.

Around here it is not unusual that the building tenants do not have direct access to the panels. They have to call the building management.

Most of the building management company's we work with want an electrician to determine the cause of the tripped breaker. They do not want the tenants resetting breakers.

Computer rooms usually get the panel in the room but then that is equipment owned by the tenant.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

What it maintenance man is on 24 hour call

 

[petersonra]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

Originally posted by jimwalker:
What it maintenance man is on 24 hour call

On call means he gets there when he gets there. I used to work as a security guard in a good sized office building when i was going to school. It was rare for the on call guy to make it in in less then 2 hours. Thats a long time to have no power.

Most CB trips are cause someone plugged in too many things. Resetting it does not require an electrician. If I were the tenant I would expect to be able to reset the breakers feeding me power.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

Most maintenance men are not electricians either and all they will do is flip the breaker anyways and if that doesn't work they call a real electrician.What stops them from handing all tenants a key to the room and a key to just there panel ?

 

[iwire]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

Originally posted by petersonra:
Most CB trips are cause someone plugged in too many things.

And the building management still wants to know that,(at least the ones we work for) so they can send a letter to the tenant noting the problem and charging them for our time.

If I were the tenant I would expect to be able to reset the breakers feeding me power.

Then you better not rent office space in this area.

Even when we locate an electric room in the tenants space the tenant does not get the keys.

I am talking about large multi floor office spaces that do have on site maintenance or security personal that can open the doors when necessary.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

But the OP is not talking about a situation where the tenant can call the maint or security guy to reset the CB.

He is talking about a situation where there is a high probabity of a relatively long period of time before a simple CB reset could be affected.

 

[iwire]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

I hear you Peter that is why I said in my first post that it is up to the AHJ / inspector to decide.

It sounds like the AHJ has decided and Warren will have to figure a way to comply.

I looked in our MA amendments there is no amendment for this.

It seems that it is common practice for the engineers designing these buildings (and then us) to violate the NEC rules.

Bob

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

Isn't it mandatory that the tenant have access to his breakers.Unless you intend to have a full time man on the property ?Seems dangerious if they can't even turn a breaker off

 

[apauling]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

this is interesting. "continuous" now means "on call". Access is also for emergency disconnect. any waiting period is TOO long.

paul

 

[iwire]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

Originally posted by apauling:
this is interesting. "continuous" now means "on call". Access is also for emergency disconnect. any waiting period is TOO long.

paul

Paul can you describe a scenario in an typical office environment that there would be a need for an 'emergency disconnect'

If we take for granted there would be a need for an emergency disconnect do you think Joe or Jill paper pusher will leap out of their chair, rush to the correct panel in time to shut off the correct breaker?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

"And the building management still wants to know that,(at least the ones we work for) so they can send a letter to the tenant noting the problem and charging them for our time."
First you lock them out then you charge them to reset a breaker :roll: Hope they have that charge listed in lease.Try that on me and you just lost a tenant.There is no hazard or harm in a breaker triping.That's what they are designed to do.So they try to relocate a copy machine and trip the breaker,big deal,they figure out it's too much and move it back.I would tell them where to stick that bill.Sounds like a money generator

[ January 03, 2005, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

Originally posted by jimwalker:
First you lock them out then you charge them to reset a breaker

We bill the management company, gee I wonder if they mark it up before charging the tenant?

I am sure sometimes breakers get reset by the in house guys but I have done many calls where all I did was unplug a space heater under a desk and reset a breaker.

The building management companies we work with are brutal, they play hardball all the way. Trust me, they are better at writing leases than tenants are at reading leases.

When the tenants remodel they are pretty much strong armed into using all the managements sub contractors. We still have to bid with a reasonable price but we will end up with the work.

One of the things this does is keep the 'core' building in good shape, we rip out all unused equipment, wires and cable. We also have more to lose if we act recklessly than a contractor that is just doing one job in the building.

By the way, they will help you out the door if you do not like the rules. Prime office space is usually not hard to fill around here.

 

[apauling]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

iwire, i can imagine several, can't you??

maybe every one who works in an office around you can't change a light bulb, but that's not true in the rest of the world.

paul

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Location of breakers/panelboards

I don't believe i would want to be a part of anything that dishonest.In my book that is gouging.I am far from being religious but this is flat out stealing