Location of load centers

[hbeery10]

I am working with an EE on doing a design for a fellowship center (this is a church project and I am on the building committee). Most of the building is slab on grade but one corner of the building has a mechanical room that will be below grade with an exterior access via a concrete set of steps. This room will have one exterior door that will typically be locked. The service to the building is a 320 amp splitting into 2 - 200 amp disconnects located on the outside of the building. From the disconnects feeders will be run to 2 load centers inside the building.

I would like to see both of the load centers located in the mechanical room, but the EE is concerned that because someone would have to exit the building and walk around the corner to get to the mechanical room that the panels would not be considered readily accessible to the building occupants (240.24(A) and (B)). Comments would be welcomed on if locating the load centers in the basement mechanical room would be a violation or not.

Garth Maibach

 

[GoldDigger]

Readily accessible does not have the common language connotation of quick and easy access. You have to look at the definition in Article 100.
Instead it means that you do not need tools, ladders, etc. to gain access, although requiring a key is acceptable (if everyone who needs access also has access to a key.)
Just plain accessible means that you do not have to tear open part of the building finish to get to it, while "readily" pretty much excludes the use of tools too.

 

[hbeery10]

Readily accessible does not have the common language connotation of quick and easy access. You have to look at the definition in Article 100.
Instead it means that you do not need tools, ladders, etc. to gain access, although requiring a key is acceptable (if everyone who needs access also has access to a key.)
Just plain accessible means that you do not have to tear open part of the building finish to get to it, while "readily" pretty much excludes the use of tools too.

Let me make sure I got this clear. 240.24(B) says "Each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy..." So what we are saying is that the occupants WOULD have ready access to the panels in the basement if they had a key, which would not be a violation of the definition of "Readily Accessible" in article 100.

 

[Smart $]

Let me make sure I got this clear. 240.24(B) says "Each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy..." So what we are saying is that the occupants WOULD have ready access to the panels in the basement if they had a key, which would not be a violation of the definition of "Readily Accessible" in article 100.

In a word, yes. Also consider the gist of 240.24(B)(2) thereunder. The only difference here as I understand it is the availability of the key to all occupants.

 

[GoldDigger]

Let me make sure I got this clear. 240.24(B) says "Each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy..." So what we are saying is that the occupants WOULD have ready access to the panels in the basement if they had a key, which would not be a violation of the definition of "Readily Accessible" in article 100.

I would see it that way.
I would suspect that the management may have other reasons for not wanting to give everybody access to that room though.
There is also an exception which essentially (my paraphrase) says that if there is a resident manager and/or super with access the individual tenants do not need access.
Technical detail: for a small building it is usually possible to set up a lock that can be opened by any apartment key instead of having to give each tenant another key to carry.

 

[ActionDave]

A panel in a mechanical room, behind a locked door is as common as a crack in the sidewalk. The 240.24 reference is in the context of a renter or a multi tenant commercial building occupant being able to get to the panel that his branch circuits originate from.

 

[hbeery10]

I would see it that way.
I would suspect that the management may have other reasons for not wanting to give everybody access to that room though.
There is also an exception which essentially (my paraphrase) says that if there is a resident manager and/or super with access the individual tenants do not need access.
Technical detail: for a small building it is usually possible to set up a lock that can be opened by any apartment key instead of having to give each tenant another key to carry.

Article 100 does not contain a definition for "occupant" so I was a little confused on whether or not 240.24(B) applied only to dwelling units or to all buildings. I assumed all buildings with the assumption that anyone inside of any building would be considered an occupant. This building is not a dwelling unit at all. It will be more like an event center. I think it would be very possible to have a key located within the building (maybe in the kitchen) for anyone needing to get to the mechanical room. Being on the building committee myself I can say that the concern isn't adults with keys getting to the mechanical room but more so locking it to keep children out of it.

 

[hbeery10]

A panel in a mechanical room, behind a locked door is as common as a crack in the sidewalk. The 240.24 reference is in the context of a renter or a multi tenant commercial building occupant being able to get to the panel that his branch circuits originate from.

Out of curiosity, where does it say that 240.24 is referencing a renter or tenant? All I can see is that 240 is on overcurrent protection and .24 simply addresses location.

 

[macmikeman]

Will they be making keys for the spiritual occupants of that Church also since we are including occupants to mean things other than dwellings................ I mean if you are going to have no common sense in your dicing apart the wording in code books then you go to take it all the way fella's.


Now , does every last person working in the empire state building get a key to the rooms where the electrical panels are located? No, they don't. But if you stretch the word occupant like this thread is trying to do they should. Same goes for all the customers in the shopping mall. And the kids in school. And the inmates locked up in prison. :slaphead:

 

[hbeery10]

Will they be making keys for the spiritual occupants of that Church also since we are including occupants to mean things other than dwellings................ I mean if you are going to have no common sense in your dicing apart the wording in code books then you go to take it all the way fella's.


Now , does every last person working in the empire state building get a key to the rooms where the electrical panels are located? No, they don't. But if you stretch the word occupant like this thread is trying to do they should. Same goes for all the customers in the shopping mall. And the kids in school. And the inmates locked up in prison. :slaphead:

I agree with you everyone doesn't necessarily need a key (and probably shouldn't even have access to one). Actually, most of the people that will be using the building will already have a key anyway so it's not an issue. Sometimes I play devil's advocate to look at every possible angle because I may have to answer similar questions later asked by others.

 

[ActionDave]

Out of curiosity, where does it say that 240.24 is referencing a renter or tenant? All I can see is that 240 is on overcurrent protection and .24 simply addresses location.

It doesn't say renter or tenant. Those are my words that I used as a way to define occupant as something other than an individual inside a building.

A visitor or even a long time attender of a church is not an occupant of the church; nor is a customer an occupant of a store. Persons on staff, employees, et al, are occupants.

 

[macmikeman]

Cockroaches are occupants. Actually this will be a good issue for Dennis Alwon to make another code proposal for and get more stars in the ""special album'' if they accept it.

 

[iwire]

A panel in a mechanical room, behind a locked door is as common as a crack in the sidewalk. The 240.24 reference is in the context of a renter or a multi tenant commercial building occupant being able to get to the panel that his branch circuits originate from.

:thumbsup:

 

[augie47]

Cockroaches are occupants. Actually this will be a good issue for Dennis Alwon to make another code proposal for and get more stars in the ""special album'' if they accept it.

I look forward to getting my copy of the ROP and finding the "Alwon cockroach proposal"

 

[Ragin Cajun]

I will give a practical reason to not put the panels in the mechanical room. Placing the panels more central to the facility will reduce branch feeder lengths. It's been my experience this is an overall less expensive location and less cluttered. Also makes access to breakers much nearer to their "use".

JMHO :roll:

RC

 

[jumper]

I look forward to getting my copy of the ROP and finding the "Alwon cockroach proposal"

 

[hbeery10]

I will give a practical reason to not put the panels in the mechanical room. Placing the panels more central to the facility will reduce branch feeder lengths. It's been my experience this is an overall less expensive location and less cluttered. Also makes access to breakers much nearer to their "use".

JMHO :roll:

RC

That's a good point, but I will say in this situation that the wall of the mechanical room that I am proposing the panels be located on is directly below the wall between the restroom and kitchen. HVAC condensing units are located right outside the kitchen so a lot of the circuit runs will be close to the panel anyway. The rest of the building is pretty much lighting and convince receptacles. The only way of getting the panel more centrally located that I can see would be putting it on one of the kitchen walls (might gain me about 25' to some of the branch circuit lengths). I was trying to avoid this location as anyone using the kitchen can get into the panel. Maybe that shouldn't be a concern?

 

[jumper]

I would not waste valuable kitchen space with a panel.

 

[hbeery10]

I forwarded this thread to the EE that I am working with and he sent this reply. Any comments would be appreciated:
-----------------------------------------------
The thread is missing the point a bit.
The issue is not the locked door.

Please tell them that "The EE that you are working with has made a professional judgement call that locating the panel in the basement does not give the workers in the kitchen quick enough access as required by the definition of Readily Accessible in article 100. >> Capable of being reached "quickly" for operation..... do I have an argument to go against his judgement?"

You have the dishwasher that is hard wired or plug unreachable. It is smoking on fire.
You have some choices.
1) pull the dishwasher out and try to unplug
2) go to a panel located close as possible.
3) go outside and pull the main disconnects
4) go to the basement and pull the panel

To me.... #4 would take the most time.
My preference is #2.
----------------------------------------------------

 

[macmikeman]

I forwarded this thread to the EE that I am working with and he sent this reply. Any comments would be appreciated:
-----------------------------------------------
The thread is missing the point a bit.
The issue is not the locked door.

Please tell them that "The EE that you are working with has made a professional judgement call that locating the panel in the basement does not give the workers in the kitchen quick enough access as required by the definition of Readily Accessible in article 100. >> Capable of being reached "quickly" for operation..... do I have an argument to go against his judgement?"

You have the dishwasher that is hard wired or plug unreachable. It is smoking on fire.
You have some choices.
1) pull the dishwasher out and try to unplug
2) go to a panel located close as possible.
3) go outside and pull the main disconnects
4) go to the basement and pull the panel

To me.... #4 would take the most time.
My preference is #2.
----------------------------------------------------

5) Install gfi breaker for dishwasher in new basement panel which will most likely interrupt the electrical supply long before it is on fire.