Location of load centers

[ActionDave]

I forwarded this thread to the EE that I am working with and he sent this reply. Any comments would be appreciated:
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The thread is missing the point a bit.
The issue is not the locked door.

Please tell them that "The EE that you are working with has made a professional judgement call that locating the panel in the basement does not give the workers in the kitchen quick enough access as required by the definition of Readily Accessible in article 100. >> Capable of being reached "quickly" for operation..... do I have an argument to go against his judgement?"

You have the dishwasher that is hard wired or plug unreachable. It is smoking on fire.
You have some choices.
1) pull the dishwasher out and try to unplug
2) go to a panel located close as possible.
3) go outside and pull the main disconnects
4) go to the basement and pull the panel

To me.... #4 would take the most time.
My preference is #2.
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It is a design issue not a code issue. Location of breaker panels, other than the service disconnect, has nothing to do with emergency situations.

How many worst case scenarios does this EE want to consider? How likely is the worst case? How far is too far to go to turn off a breaker? Fifty feet? Arms reach? Why are we only worried about the kitchen?

You have a fire in the kitchen from any source, the choice is to get out of the building and call the fire department.

 

[gadfly56]

I forwarded this thread to the EE that I am working with and he sent this reply. Any comments would be appreciated:
-----------------------------------------------
The thread is missing the point a bit.
The issue is not the locked door.

Please tell them that "The EE that you are working with has made a professional judgement call that locating the panel in the basement does not give the workers in the kitchen quick enough access as required by the definition of Readily Accessible in article 100. >> Capable of being reached "quickly" for operation..... do I have an argument to go against his judgement?"

You have the dishwasher that is hard wired or plug unreachable. It is smoking on fire.
You have some choices.
1) pull the dishwasher out and try to unplug
2) go to a panel located close as possible.
3) go outside and pull the main disconnects
4) go to the basement and pull the panel

To me.... #4 would take the most time.
My preference is #2.
----------------------------------------------------

As ActionDave suggests, the EE is reaching regarding "readily accessible". He'd have more wriggle room if the definition didn't provide examples of what is not "readily accessible". There are any number of adverse conditions that might compel one to put safeguards in place to mitigate their impact. If everyone were compelled to travel in an M1 Abrams tank at no more than 10 MPH, we could reduce traffic fatalities from vehicle collisions to zero. Few would consider it a reasonable solution (however cool). The purpose of the electrical code is to allow us to use electricity safely and reduce the risk of fire and injury. If there is already a fire in the dishwasher, it is not incumbent on the NEC to facilitate firefighting. That's for building codes. And that's my opinion, FWIW, as a PE.

 

[TommyO]

I was trying to avoid this location as anyone using the kitchen can get into the panel. Maybe that shouldn't be a concern?

I don't see that as a concern.

My church has a number of panels throughout the buildings.
3 are in hallways where anyone walking through could open the door and flip breakers.
One is in a room that's a the network/phone/access-to-elevator-mechanicals room.
One is in an attic space (requires pull-down stairs to get to)
One is in a janitor's closet (contains paper supplies, mops and floor sink, etc.)
And 2 are by the service entrance inside a usually locked area.

I have not heard of anyone flipping breakers unnecessarily.

I probably would not put it in the kitchen - but in the hallway outside the kitchen.

Wallspace in a kitchen is almost always a valuable commodity.

If there's a door that swings out from the kitchen into the hall you could put it behind the door - such that when the door is propped open it covers the panel.

 

[petersonra]

I think he has obsessed over something that is a remote possibility and trying to reduce that remote risk by doing something that really won't do what he wants. The answer when there is a fire is to evacuate right now. Anything else is a bad idea and likely to get someone killed.

having said that, there is no reason a small panelboard could not be put in the kitchen for the circuits there. a spot could be found where it does not take up usable wall space. like behind an inward opening door.

 

[charlie b]

Capable of being reached "quickly" for operation..... do I have an argument to go against his judgment?"

Yes you do. “Quickly” does not mean “immediately, so as to prevent the spread of fire or to turn off a circuit that is causing a person to get shocked.” What “quickly” does mean, as stated in the definition of “readily accessible,” is that you don’t need to look for a ladder before you can get to the location of the breaker.

The purpose of our installing circuit breakers is absolutely not to enable a person to manually terminate an emergency situation. We install breakers to protect wires against overcurrent. They also afford us a convenient way to turn off (and tag out) a circuit to allow a maintenance person to safely do work. If a dishwasher is on fire, then the people working in the kitchen should leave the building.

Action Dave said the same sort of thing in Post #21.

 

[kwired]

I forwarded this thread to the EE that I am working with and he sent this reply. Any comments would be appreciated:
-----------------------------------------------
The thread is missing the point a bit.
The issue is not the locked door.

Please tell them that "The EE that you are working with has made a professional judgement call that locating the panel in the basement does not give the workers in the kitchen quick enough access as required by the definition of Readily Accessible in article 100. >> Capable of being reached "quickly" for operation..... do I have an argument to go against his judgement?"

You have the dishwasher that is hard wired or plug unreachable. It is smoking on fire.
You have some choices.
1) pull the dishwasher out and try to unplug
2) go to a panel located close as possible.
3) go outside and pull the main disconnects
4) go to the basement and pull the panel

To me.... #4 would take the most time.
My preference is #2.
----------------------------------------------------

His answer and example is still a design decision and not an NEC requirement.

You can have most anything else imaginable on fire and similar situation.

The breakers are not an emergency stop, they can be a disconnecting means and in some cases when remote disconnecting means is permitted.

As has been mentioned placing panel(s) in the kitchen means you need 110.26 clearances - which takes up some of your kitchen space that could be used for kitchen items. A hallway just outside the kitchen is possibly a good compromise though if you still want close to kitchen equipment.

 

[growler]

I forwarded this thread to the EE that I am working with and he sent this reply. Any comments would be appreciated:
-----------------------------------------------
You have the dishwasher that is hard wired or plug unreachable. It is smoking on fire.
You have some choices.
1) pull the dishwasher out and try to unplug
2) go to a panel located close as possible.
3) go outside and pull the main disconnects
4) go to the basement and pull the panel

To me.... #4 would take the most time.
My preference is #2.
----------------------------------------------------

If you don't have a sprinkler system then you are probably going to be required to have fire extinguishers in the area. In a kitchen you may be required to have extinguishers anyway and they are not there just for show purposes.

Once a fire starts it's not going to be the electrical materials that are burning but building materials or kitchen supplies. Shutting off the dish washer circuit will not put out the fire.

If anyone notices the fire while it's still small then a fire extinguisher will probably do the trick.

If there is a real fire then exterior disconnects are best to shut down power to the whole building. This will allow the fire department to spray water and cut and hack as needed.