Loop Impedance Test

[user 100]

Thats something Iwire has said before to the period. Im seeing that Iwire has a lot of influence on this forum...

Not on me he doesn't-he just happens to look at this stuff through the eyes of an electrician and obviously a lot of electricians will agree with his views. A lot of these ideas work on paper and in theory, but they won't work irl. You mentioned earlier in this thread that ELIT should be taught to electricians during apprenticeship and thats still no guarantee that it will be done correctly or done at all, its just the way it is.

The op has still provided not one shred of proof that ELIT is needed and despite naming off several things that "electricians struggle with everyday" he has not given any details about how ELIT would be of any advantage when dealing with those things. He has also not shown how ELIT would perform any better when paired against the much simpler continuity test or load/voltage test mentioned by others in this thread.

Your statement that "it lets the original installer off the hook" is supposed to mean what? If a fire does occur the ELIT results would be meaningless when it is pointed out that there is no way to be sure you even did the test, so why would it even be considered a factor?

 

[mbrooke]

Do either of you guys actually perform these test on the new houses that you wire?

What are your findings so far? Cost & benefits.


You guys know that some states have very strict gun control and others don't and yet the number of guns used in crimes is about the same. More rules doesn't always make you safer at times it's just more time and money wasted with no benefits.

Because criminals will disobey laws no matter what. Gun control is a misguided effort that does not target the root of the problem. The root being people who choose to use them for malicious reasons. Identifying these inviduals early is the only real answer, however you can not screen millions of people without violating constitutional rights. Wiring is different, it can be screened without violating anything. (Of course Im no criminal expert so take this with a grain of salt )

I have performed insulation resistance tests before, and they do uncover problems before hand. Its easier to fix a wiring error then instal breakers like AFCI only to have GFP pick it up latter. As awful as AFCIs are, they did uncover something no one can argue with: sloppy electricians exist, and not just a a rare number. IR testing would have done the same as the GFP before hand eliminating trouble call backs.

 

[mbrooke]

Not on me he doesn't-he just happens to look at this stuff through the eyes of an electrician and obviously a lot of electricians will agree with his views.

Im going to be blunt, and please forgive me: What Im reading is electricians dont want to spend anymore effort then it takes to get the lights on. Installer convenience trumps safety or code compliance. I can see Iwire doing summer salts here at this point lol, but thats what Im reading.

A lot of these ideas work on paper and in theory, but they won't work irl. You mentioned earlier in this thread that ELIT should be taught to electricians during apprenticeship and thats still no guarantee that it will be done correctly or done at all, its just the way it is.

EFLI is done all over world good results, and those sparkies seem to think its a good idea.

Whenever I have proposed or mentioned something on this forum that is being done regularly with success but other members are unaware; I am automatically met with 'it will never work', 'it only looks good on paper' 'your nuts' 'no one would ever do that its dangerous' However reality is proving most those statements wrong and I knew that ahead of time. What I take away is that questioning tradition will be met with strong opposition regardless of being wrong or right. This is perhaps why we are falling behind when compared to the rest of the world, because any new theory or knowledge is automatically discredited simply for being different then established traditions.

The op has still provided not one shred of proof that ELIT is needed and despite naming off several things that "electricians struggle with everyday" he has not given any details about how ELIT would be of any advantage when dealing with those things. He has also not shown how ELIT would perform any better when paired against the much simpler continuity test or load/voltage test mentioned by others in this thread.

There is the fact 30/50ma GFP in AFCIs has caught sloppy electricians. Yes testing can not control what happens down the road, but it does show we have problems with initial erection of infrastructure.

Your statement that "it lets the original installer off the hook" is supposed to mean what? If a fire does occur the ELIT results would be meaningless when it is pointed out that there is no way to be sure you even did the test, so why would it even be considered a factor?

If a pool begins to shock people via compromised motor, documentation can show that the original installer confirmed the motor had an functioning EGC.

 

[growler]

I have performed insulation resistance tests before, and they do uncover problems before hand. Its easier to fix a wiring error then instal breakers like AFCI only to have GFP pick it up latter. As awful as AFCIs are, they did uncover something no one can argue with: sloppy electricians exist, and not just a a rare number. IR testing would have done the same as the GFP before hand eliminating trouble call backs.

I do mostly trouble-shooting of exisiting homes (service calls ). I haven't had many problems that involved building wiring with AFCIs. I have had to replace quite a number of them just because the AFCIs were bad or not compatable with appliances used by the homeowner (TVs, vacuum cleaners, computers and so forth ).

The AFCI was designed to be a catch all. To spot problems with bad extension cords and appliance cords and older deteriorating wiring and possibly damaged insulation. An IR test would cover one of these but leave other faults.

 

[growler]

EFLI is done all over world good results, and those sparkies seem to think its a good idea.

Whenever I have proposed or mentioned something on this forum that is being done regularly with success but other members are unaware; I am automatically met with 'it will never work', 'it only looks good on paper' 'your nuts' 'no one would ever do that its dangerous' However reality is proving most those statements wrong and I knew that ahead of time. What I take away is that questioning tradition will be met with strong opposition regardless of being wrong or right. This is perhaps why we are falling behind when compared to the rest of the world, because any new theory or knowledge is automatically discredited simply for being different then established traditions.

How do you know the results of EFLI testing done in other parts of the world are good? It's an established tradition in some places and they think they need it. Maybe they do need it. Do they use the same materials used in the US?

No one has said that you are nuts. No one had said that testing is dangerous. We have said that it looks better on paper than in reality.

Who said we are falling behind the rest of the world? They are going in a hole as fast as possible and we are doing our best to keep up.

 

[iwire]

mbrooke, time for you to be honest.

You have never wired a dwelling unit for pay have you?

You have never done an 'IR' test in any dwelling have you?

 

[mbrooke]

I do mostly trouble-shooting of exisiting homes (service calls ). I haven't had many problems that involved building wiring with AFCIs. I have had to replace quite a number of them just because the AFCIs were bad or not compatable with appliances used by the homeowner (TVs, vacuum cleaners, computers and so forth ).

The AFCI was designed to be a catch all. To spot problems with bad extension cords and appliance cords and older deteriorating wiring and possibly damaged insulation. An IR test would cover one of these but leave other faults.

True, an personally other then the 30/50ma GFP AFCI will not catch anything let alone conditions in the real world. However no one can deny 30/50ma has caught some stuff. Arcing may not occur in dwelling unit wiring, but conditions that GFP or IR can detect are frequent in poor installations.

 

[mbrooke]

mbrooke, time for you to be honest.

You have never wired a dwelling unit for pay have you?

You have never done an 'IR' test in any dwelling have you?

I have wired a substantial amount of units for pay, and yes Ive carried out IR.


Again, you dont like what Im saying so the need to discredit.

 

[growler]

Arcing may not occur in dwelling unit wiring, but conditions that GFP or IR can detect are frequent in poor installations.

Who is supposed to do the IR testing in these poor installations? The same goons that did the installation in the first place?

 

[user 100]

Who is supposed to do the IR testing in these poor installations? The same goons that did the installation in the first place?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[iwire]

I have wired a substantial amount of units for pay, and yes Ive carried out IR.


Again, you dont like what Im saying so the need to discredit.

You have been disparaging electrians for weeks here.

It is not out of line to ask your background

Why are you unwilling to let us know about you?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Im going to be blunt, and please forgive me: What Im reading is electricians dont want to spend anymore effort then it takes to get the lights on. Installer convenience trumps safety or code compliance. ...

That is exactly the case (for some installers) and adding new rules won't change that. The installers that won't follow this proposed rule are the ones where the rule might actually be needed.

 

[mbrooke]

Give the AHJ proof that your installation is good and that all of your connections are secure. Electrical Inspectors and Fire Departments Nationwide should support this proposed idea. With the advancement in technology the loop impedance tester will save the electrician and the customer money by avoiding costly call backs. It gives insurance companies the documentation and a standard to lower home owner insurance premiums and the electricians insurance premiums. Electrical inspectors can not possibly manage to find all these problems during, in most cases, a walk though inspection and a Hail Mary Pass that everything going to be alright!!!. It promotes fire safety and protects the public. Don't let the word loop impedance scare you away it's a very simple test and a very useful tool for troubleshooting.
There has never been a greater need for this type test and ignorance may have put it down in past proposals??? If it helps the industry then I'm all for it ... bring it on!!!!

FWIW food for thought, the NEC actually lets you wave GFCI requirements for temporary installations when testing is carried out:

590.6

(B) Use of Other Outlets. For temporary wiring installations,
receptacles, other than those covered by 590.6(A)(1)
through (A)(3) used to supply temporary power to equipment
used by personnel during construction, remodeling,
maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures,
or equipment, or similar activities, shall have protection in
accordance with (B)(1) or the assured equipment grounding
conductor program in accordance with (B)(2).

(1) GFCI Protection. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
for personnel.

(2) Assured Equipment Grounding Conductor Program.
A written assured equipment grounding conductor
program continuously enforced at the site by one or more
designated persons to ensure that equipment grounding
conductors for all cord sets, receptacles that are not a part
of the permanent wiring of the building or structure, and
equipment connected by cord and plug are installed and
maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements
of 250.114, 250.138, 406.4(C), and 590.4(D).
(a) The following tests shall be performed on all cord
sets, receptacles that are not part of the permanent wiring of
the building or structure, and cord-and-plug-connected equipment
required to be connected to an equipment grounding
conductor:

(1) All equipment grounding conductors shall be tested for
continuity and shall be electrically continuous.

(2) Each receptacle and attachment plug shall be tested for
correct attachment of the equipment grounding conductor.
The equipment grounding conductor shall be connected
to its proper terminal.

(3) All required tests shall be performed as follows:
a. Before first use on site
b. When there is evidence of damage
c. Before equipment is returned to service following
any repairs
d. At intervals not exceeding 3 months
(b) The tests required in item (2)(a) shall be recorded
and made available to the authority having jurisdiction.

 

[mbrooke]

That is exactly the case (for some installers) and adding new rules won't change that. The installers that won't follow this proposed rule are the ones where the rule might actually be needed.

You make a good point here. Which is why I believe apprentices should be taught this early on. There will always be those that don't follow it, those who will follow are an advantage imo.

 

[romex jockey]

The proliferation of afci's alone should boost meg sales as well as pre metering to an extent for prudent EC's roping dwellings

For Ex, if you do not meet 210.12(B) ex. under 6' performing a panel change , you'd be a fool not to at least lift all the neutrals for a continuity check

But that does not oust what 30 milliamps can find under a load in Roosevelt era branch circuitry

This has nothing to do with stats, fires, or (if you're insistent) even the trades integrity .

It has everything to do with callbacks , nagging phone calls , and time you'll EAT after the install is done & paid for



~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

You have been disparaging electrians for weeks here.

'electricians' ......

back up your charges, or retract them

It is not out of line to ask your background

Why are you unwilling to let us know about you?

goose, gander

you first....

~RJ~

 

[peter d]

Does anyone know why this test has not been adopted as a standard to check wiring for new installation?

It's a 6 page thread and I have not read one reply yet, but the simple answer is that we don't need to.

 

[zbang]

I've read some of it and it sounds a bit like one or two people make or sell the testers.

 

[peter d]

You have been disparaging electrians for weeks here.

It is not out of line to ask your background

Why are you unwilling to let us know about you?

I think the simple fact that he is calling for loop impedance testing (simply because the British do it) proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is not an electrician and has not worked in the trade a day in his life.

 

[peter d]

Whenever I have proposed or mentioned something on this forum that is being done regularly with success but other members are unaware; I am automatically met with 'it will never work', 'it only looks good on paper' 'your nuts' 'no one would ever do that its dangerous' However reality is proving most those statements wrong and I knew that ahead of time. What I take away is that questioning tradition will be met with strong opposition regardless of being wrong or right.

The reason you get so much opposition is because you are talking to genuine electricians and contractors who work in the trade every day, and don't see a need for these rules and standards you are proposing. Practical experience is just as valuable as book learning and theory.

This is perhaps why we are falling behind when compared to the rest of the world, because any new theory or knowledge is automatically discredited simply for being different then established traditions.

Since you love foreign wiring systems so much, you're welcome to move to Britain instead of trying to change American wiring practices to match theirs.