Loop Impedance Test

[romex jockey]

The '17 will require us to install afci's on any 120V circuitry

and afci is essentially the American equivalent of an RCD

Assuming similar electrical equipment means assuming similar electrical techniques

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

The reason you get so much opposition is because you are talking to genuine electricians and contractors who work in the trade every day, and don't see a need for these rules and standards you are proposing. Practical experience is just as valuable as book learning and theory.

They don't see the need because its of extra effort. What I take away from these threads is electricians just want to get the lights on with as little effort as possible. Physical or mental shortcuts do not make a better professional.

Also since the implementation of AFCIs you can not tell me you aren't meggering circuits. Practical experience has proven not every single installation is defect free.

Since you love foreign wiring systems so much, you're welcome to move to Britain instead of trying to change American wiring practices to match theirs.

:lol: I love trying to find ways to better this country, not letting is fall down. Its the right of ever citizen.

 

[peter d]

They don't see the need because its of extra effort. What I take away from these threads is electricians just want to get the lights on with as little effort as possible.

Also since the implementation of AFCIs you can not tell me you aren't meggering circuits.

Never, not one time. I turn the breaker on and make sure everything works. That's the extent of my testing.

Practical experience has proven not every single installation is defect free.

But that doesn't mean we need to start doing all the tests you are proposing either.

I love trying to find ways to better this country, not letting is fall down. Its the right of ever citizen.

You're against AFCI's which is good, and I agree. But then you propose all sorts of other things in place of AFCI's that would make installation even more costly and time consuming. Personally, I would rather just stick with AFCI's than do anything you're proposing we do in its place. At least some AFCI's still incorporate some level of GFP and I can at least live with that.

 

[mbrooke]

Never, not one time. I turn the breaker on and make sure everything works. That's the extent of my testing.

But unless you megger or GFP, there is not way of knowing if you comply with the NEC.

But that doesn't mean we need to start doing all the tests you are proposing either.

True, but the concept should be evaluated thoroughly to determine whether a code mandated, partial code mandate or as an optional to other methods is appropriate.

You're against AFCI's which is good, and I agree. But then you propose all sorts of other things in place of AFCI's that would make installation even more costly and time consuming. Personally, I would rather just stick with AFCI's than do anything you're proposing we do in its place. At least some AFCI's still incorporate some level of GFP and I can at least live with that.

I would never stick with AFCIs, never, and one of the reasons you mention. GFP is being taken out of them making them a lead weight while a cheaper GFCI breaker does a better job.

 

[romex jockey]

Never, not one time. I turn the breaker on and make sure everything works. That's the extent of my testing.

You may have 2nd thoughts closing a 3-4000A 480 OCPD Pete

I certainly have btw....

In fact, should you (or you AHJ) have failed to meet the provisions of 230.95 (C) your closed casket funeral may well be attended by OHSA , and you're 'ol lady may well be denied any pursuant insurance claims


>>>>

(C) Performance Testing. The ground-fault protection sys-
tem shall be performance tested when first installed on site.
The test shall be conducted in accordance with instructions
that shall be provided with the equipment. A written record of
this test shall be made and shall be available to the authority
having jurisdiction.

~RJ~

 

[user 100]

But unless you megger or GFP, there is not way of knowing if you comply with the NEC.

The tens of millions of code compliant trouble free residential installs that have never seen an afci, meggar, or any other special testing beg to differ.

 

[peter d]

You may have 2nd thoughts closing a 3-4000A 480 OCPD Pete

I certainly have btw....

In fact, should you (or you AHJ) have failed to meet the provisions of 230.95 (C) your closed casket funeral may well be attended by OHSA , and you're 'ol lady may well be denied any pursuant insurance claims


>>>>



~RJ~

When I get to close one, I'll keep that in mind. :roll:

 

[peter d]

The tens of millions of code compliant trouble free residential installs that have never seen an afci, meggar, or any other special testing beg to differ.

:thumbsup:

Here is my view on this, in case anyone is confused. I hope I can get my point across.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH NORTH AMERICAN WIRING SYSTEMS AND PRACTICE.

​

 

[GoldDigger]

:thumbsup:

Here is my view on this, in case anyone is confused. I hope I can get my point across.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH NORTH AMERICAN WIRING SYSTEMS AND PRACTICE.

​

Except maybe the requirement to use AFCIs???

 

[iwire]

You may have 2nd thoughts closing a 3-4000A 480 OCPD Pete

I certainly have btw....

In fact, should you (or you AHJ) have failed to meet the provisions of 230.95 (C) your closed casket funeral may well be attended by OHSA , and you're 'ol lady may well be denied any pursuant insurance claims


>>>>



~RJ~

You don't seem to understand that section you have posted requires testing of the device not the wiring.

Now before I energize large equipment I do some testing for shorts but that does not mean it should be code required.

 

[mbrooke]

The '17 will require us to install afci's on any 120V circuitry

and afci is essentially the American equivalent of an RCD

Assuming similar electrical equipment means assuming similar electrical techniques

~RJ~

Personally I would change 210.12 to read like this:

210.12 Protection Against Wiring Defects.

(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed
in dwelling units shall comply with one or more the following except
where otherwise noted:

1. Each circuit shall have 50 milli amp or less differential ground fault protection provided by a listed and approved device at the branch circuit origin.

FPN: A 5 milli amp ground fault circuit interrupting device at the branch circuit origin is permitted to fulfill the requirements of 210.12 (A).


Exception: Dedicated branch circuits solely providing service for electric heating equipment as specified in article 424, kitchen refrigeration equipment, fire alarms, and dedicated receptacle circuits intended for treadmills shall not be required to comply with 210.12 (A).

2. Dielectric Strength Test. The wiring of each new circuit
shall be subjected to a 10 second, 1000-volt D.C., dielectric
strength test (with all switches closed) between live parts
(including neutral conductor) and the equipment grounding
conductor relative to the circuit being tested for all new homes to
determine compliance with 110.7. This test shall be performed after branch circuits are complete
and with all switches closed.

Exception: Listed luminaires or appliances shall not be
required to undergo or withstand the dielectric strength test.

 

[mbrooke]

The tens of millions of code compliant trouble free residential installs that have never seen an afci, meggar, or any other special testing beg to differ.

If I took a megger to them I bet all the money in the world I would find some violations. Anyone who have ever done power quality will tell you every building has at least a few standing ground faults or crossed circuits. The reason being because nothing is there to alert such a problem exists. When AFCIs came out 30ma GFP confirmed what was suspected all along.

 

[user 100]

If I took a megger to them I bet all the money in the world I would find some violations. Anyone who have ever done power quality will tell you every building has at least a few standing ground faults or crossed circuits. The reason being because nothing is there to alert such a problem exists. When AFCIs came out 30ma GFP confirmed what was suspected all along.

But in the overwhelming vast majority you wouldn't find a thing and most of the violations you would find as well as some faults would never cause any issues-you would end up wasting an incredible amount of time and money.

 

[romex jockey]

You don't seem to understand that section you have posted requires testing of the device not the wiring.

Now before I energize large equipment I do some testing for shorts but that does not mean it should be code required.

And you didn't read the article Iwire....

perhaps pix help....:lol:

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

But in the overwhelming vast majority you wouldn't find a thing and most of the violations you would find as well as some faults would never cause any issues-you would end up wasting an incredible amount of time and money.

So your saying crossed circuits and standing neutral to ground faults are acceptable in North American wiring?


Keep in mind why isolated ground receptacles came about...

 

[romex jockey]

Personally I would change 210.12 to read like this:

.

A lofty aspiration to actually assume the level of manufactured home wiring methods MBrooke....

I'd certainly need more theory class.....

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

Keep in mind why isolated ground receptacles came about...

Lord i need a tall one before we go there MBrooke...~RJ~

 

[sparks1]

Don't feel bad that America didn't adopt ELIT first? This test is used around the world .
That' a lot of savy smart electricians. I have article that support my opinions on this subject.
Copy righted materials by others. Sorry forum rules ....not permitted to post.
There's volumes written on the subject. Just go on the World Wide Web for all the support and help

Maybe the rest of the world could teach us a thing or two??? Since we are now a global economy

The ElIt is not currently available in the USA since some feel it's a waist of time and money.

 

[user 100]

So your saying crossed circuits and standing neutral to ground faults are acceptable in North American wiring?

Nope-just not quite as common as many believe and not quite as dangerous as many believe-not that many people meet their demise at the hands of a n>g fault and I have seen some soldered (yes, soldered) neutrals that had been incorrectly tied together decades ago and are still trouble free.
Both of these practices are indeed potentially dangerous, fires do happen as a result, but most of the time these will go unnoticed and are largely inconsequential.

 

[GoldDigger]

Nope-just not quite as common as many believe and not quite as dangerous as many believe-not that many people meet their demise at the hands of a n>g fault and I have seen some soldered (yes, soldered) neutrals that had been incorrectly tied together decades ago and are still trouble free.
Both of these practices are indeed potentially dangerous, fires do happen as a result, but most of the time these will go unnoticed and are largely inconsequential.

Possibly the greatest hazard is to the electrician who tries to work on the neutral after deenergizing only the circuit that should be feeding it.