lost for words
- Thread starter wirenuts
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jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: lost for words
explain to who ??
explain to who ??
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: lost for words
It is pointless to explain electric to him.Nothing short of basic electricity will help.Send him to the library,unless he will pay your hourly charges to teach him.Homeowners only need to be taught how to reset gfci receptacles and afci breakers and of course reg breakers.Beyond that they will be lost anyways
It is pointless to explain electric to him.Nothing short of basic electricity will help.Send him to the library,unless he will pay your hourly charges to teach him.Homeowners only need to be taught how to reset gfci receptacles and afci breakers and of course reg breakers.Beyond that they will be lost anyways
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: lost for words
There is nothing wrong with shoring up the fears that home owners have with electricity and they do have them. giving them a little understanding on how some things work goes a long way to having a customer that will feel more safe and secure with your work. But communication is most important. and knowing how to word it is also important.
But it would take a book to write to explain the roll of the neutral.
There is nothing wrong with shoring up the fears that home owners have with electricity and they do have them. giving them a little understanding on how some things work goes a long way to having a customer that will feel more safe and secure with your work. But communication is most important. and knowing how to word it is also important.
But it would take a book to write to explain the roll of the neutral.
Ed MacLaren
Senior Member
Re: lost for words
wirenuts,
Study these sketches and see if they make any sense. They illustrate basic principles only and do not represent actual installations.
Diagrams A and B might help explain why multiwire circuits are used. More power is delivered to the load using less wire.
Diagram C shows how the neutral carries the unbalanced load in, for example, a panel feeder.
Ed
[ February 10, 2004, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
wirenuts,
Study these sketches and see if they make any sense. They illustrate basic principles only and do not represent actual installations.
Diagrams A and B might help explain why multiwire circuits are used. More power is delivered to the load using less wire.
Diagram C shows how the neutral carries the unbalanced load in, for example, a panel feeder.
Ed
[ February 10, 2004, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: lost for words
Drg, in short the neutral is a return path to the supply(usually the power company poco)in homes it will be bonded to the ground system at the service.Like Hurk said this would take a book to really understand it.It is similar to the negative post on your car.
Most customers know little if anything about electric.And the more you explain the more scared and confused they seem to get.When i meet them while wiring there new home i try to deal with making there dream house come true and create a trust that i will be wiring them a safe home.They usually want to know things like where switches or outlets will be located or is that enough light in the kitchen or bathroom.Take time to explain gfci (reseting) or you will be getting a service call.Really no point in explaining electrical systems to them.Make sure they know who you are and how to reach you if they have problems.The last thing i want to do is let them think they can work on this system themself.If they really want to know that badly send them to big orange for a copy of BE AN ELECTRICIAN IN 30 MINUTES.Then count on getting lots of service work from them.
Drg, in short the neutral is a return path to the supply(usually the power company poco)in homes it will be bonded to the ground system at the service.Like Hurk said this would take a book to really understand it.It is similar to the negative post on your car.
Most customers know little if anything about electric.And the more you explain the more scared and confused they seem to get.When i meet them while wiring there new home i try to deal with making there dream house come true and create a trust that i will be wiring them a safe home.They usually want to know things like where switches or outlets will be located or is that enough light in the kitchen or bathroom.Take time to explain gfci (reseting) or you will be getting a service call.Really no point in explaining electrical systems to them.Make sure they know who you are and how to reach you if they have problems.The last thing i want to do is let them think they can work on this system themself.If they really want to know that badly send them to big orange for a copy of BE AN ELECTRICIAN IN 30 MINUTES.Then count on getting lots of service work from them.
james wuebker
Senior Member
- Location
- Iowa
Re: lost for words
Jim, It's not pointless to explain some things to this home owner. I saw that you said that the only thing he needs to know is how to reset the gfci,afci and the regular breakers. That's wrong in my book. We should teach him a little why they trip and then he needs to call a eletrican to find out why he has to keep resetting those breakers. I do agree with all of you guys about explaining what the neutral does.
Bye now!
Jim, It's not pointless to explain some things to this home owner. I saw that you said that the only thing he needs to know is how to reset the gfci,afci and the regular breakers. That's wrong in my book. We should teach him a little why they trip and then he needs to call a eletrican to find out why he has to keep resetting those breakers. I do agree with all of you guys about explaining what the neutral does.
Bye now!
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: lost for words
Is it necessary to get anymore descriptive beyond the fact that a circuit has a beginning and an end and the neutral provides one of those connections? Ask an automechanic what an injector pump is for and you'll probably hear "to provide high pressure fuel to the cylinders". He doesn't have to go into details to explain what a cylinder is or how the pump actually works or timing, for this would take a book also.
Many times I find myself fealing uneasy because I would like to know some answers but, out of professional courtesy, I don't like to ask the professional. One of the advantages of living in these United States is that we have the freedom to choose our professions. If I want to learn about electricity, I should go to school or as you say, to the library. It is not fair to ask a professional to teach me his trade without compensation. After all, he/she invested in the training and I should be required to do the same. I think it is wonderful how this forum provides for an exchange of knowledge and understanding and I applaud all. I have also recognized that when a question is asked that requires too much in-depth knowledge, this forum is quick and right to just steer the individual in the right direction to educate themselves. This is how it should be.
Whether to take the time to explain the neutral or grounded conductor's purpose to this individual is a matter of choice on your part. It is also appropriate for you to give a very brief overview explanation and then send this person to the library.
Bob
Is it necessary to get anymore descriptive beyond the fact that a circuit has a beginning and an end and the neutral provides one of those connections? Ask an automechanic what an injector pump is for and you'll probably hear "to provide high pressure fuel to the cylinders". He doesn't have to go into details to explain what a cylinder is or how the pump actually works or timing, for this would take a book also.
Many times I find myself fealing uneasy because I would like to know some answers but, out of professional courtesy, I don't like to ask the professional. One of the advantages of living in these United States is that we have the freedom to choose our professions. If I want to learn about electricity, I should go to school or as you say, to the library. It is not fair to ask a professional to teach me his trade without compensation. After all, he/she invested in the training and I should be required to do the same. I think it is wonderful how this forum provides for an exchange of knowledge and understanding and I applaud all. I have also recognized that when a question is asked that requires too much in-depth knowledge, this forum is quick and right to just steer the individual in the right direction to educate themselves. This is how it should be.
Whether to take the time to explain the neutral or grounded conductor's purpose to this individual is a matter of choice on your part. It is also appropriate for you to give a very brief overview explanation and then send this person to the library.
Bob
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: lost for words
Often the electrician is caught in the middle of home buyer and the GC or SUPER.There is a fine line that you can't cross.So be carefull when talking to that customer.Far to often they want you to add something on the side.Most contracts spell this out and you must go thru the GC ( he wants his cut )Possibly a good idea would be to print a small booklet to hand to the customer when the house is completed ,explaing half hots,fan/lights,pull chains,gfci,afci,single receptacles in that garage,etc.
Of course your company name and # and put that label on the panel(was on my punchout list for one company).
Often the electrician is caught in the middle of home buyer and the GC or SUPER.There is a fine line that you can't cross.So be carefull when talking to that customer.Far to often they want you to add something on the side.Most contracts spell this out and you must go thru the GC ( he wants his cut )Possibly a good idea would be to print a small booklet to hand to the customer when the house is completed ,explaing half hots,fan/lights,pull chains,gfci,afci,single receptacles in that garage,etc.
Of course your company name and # and put that label on the panel(was on my punchout list for one company).
Re: lost for words
The easiest way I found to explain electrical circuits to the customer is to define a circuit: A power source, a load, and a path for power to flow. I try to stay away from techno-jargon that "we" use--current, volts, etc. unlessed asked. The neutral is the return path and it is needed to make the circuit work. Most people are accepting to that definition. If they want more, I refer them to the library or internet, explaining that I went to school for 4 years to learn how to be an electrician. By giving them a history or requirements on what it takes to be an electrician the customer develops an understanding of the skill needed to be an electrician. My.$.02
The easiest way I found to explain electrical circuits to the customer is to define a circuit: A power source, a load, and a path for power to flow. I try to stay away from techno-jargon that "we" use--current, volts, etc. unlessed asked. The neutral is the return path and it is needed to make the circuit work. Most people are accepting to that definition. If they want more, I refer them to the library or internet, explaining that I went to school for 4 years to learn how to be an electrician. By giving them a history or requirements on what it takes to be an electrician the customer develops an understanding of the skill needed to be an electrician. My.$.02
Ed MacLaren
Senior Member
Re: lost for words
It is called a "neutral" because the voltages, and the phase relationships, between it and all the other conductors of the circuit are equal.
Where the loads are well balanced on a three or four wire service or feeder, the neutral will be carrying considerably less current than the other conductors, and if the loads were perfectly balanced it would carry no current at all.
However, as you said, the technicalities won't matter much to the average consumer.
Ed
[ February 11, 2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
Actually, that is another in a long list of "electrical myths", similar to the one that says "current takes the path of least resistance".
It is called a "neutral" because the voltages, and the phase relationships, between it and all the other conductors of the circuit are equal.
Where the loads are well balanced on a three or four wire service or feeder, the neutral will be carrying considerably less current than the other conductors, and if the loads were perfectly balanced it would carry no current at all.
However, as you said, the technicalities won't matter much to the average consumer.
Ed
[ February 11, 2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
- Location
- Lockport, IL
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- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: lost for words
The existence of a ?neutral? is one of the two most significant areas in which ?electrical stuff? is different from ?mechanical stuff.? At some point in our careers, we will have all heard of mechanical analogies: The voltage is the push, the battery is the pump, the wire is the hose, the current is the flow of water, etc.
Here?s the big difference: You can dip a cup into a full bucket of water, carry it across the yard, and dump it into an empty bucket. You can connect a hose to a spigot and dump water onto the yard. You can pour beer from a bottle into a glass. In all of these cases, the fluid is caused to move from one place to another, and there is no need for the fluid to make its way back to the ?source.?
Not so for ?electrical stuff.? Rather, unless there is a complete circuit, no part of the path will feel the push. You need a complete path, meaning (as others have already said), a source, a conductor, a load, and another conductor. The fact that we call one of the conductors a ?neutral? is unimportant to the homeowner. It may even be confusing, as Ed has suggested. The one thing that the homeowner must be made to understand is that ?neutral? does NOT NOT NOT mean ?safe to touch.?
Charlie B.
p.s. The other area to which I alluded in my opening sentence is ?power factor.? But let?s not go there today.
The existence of a ?neutral? is one of the two most significant areas in which ?electrical stuff? is different from ?mechanical stuff.? At some point in our careers, we will have all heard of mechanical analogies: The voltage is the push, the battery is the pump, the wire is the hose, the current is the flow of water, etc.
Here?s the big difference: You can dip a cup into a full bucket of water, carry it across the yard, and dump it into an empty bucket. You can connect a hose to a spigot and dump water onto the yard. You can pour beer from a bottle into a glass. In all of these cases, the fluid is caused to move from one place to another, and there is no need for the fluid to make its way back to the ?source.?
Not so for ?electrical stuff.? Rather, unless there is a complete circuit, no part of the path will feel the push. You need a complete path, meaning (as others have already said), a source, a conductor, a load, and another conductor. The fact that we call one of the conductors a ?neutral? is unimportant to the homeowner. It may even be confusing, as Ed has suggested. The one thing that the homeowner must be made to understand is that ?neutral? does NOT NOT NOT mean ?safe to touch.?
Charlie B.
p.s. The other area to which I alluded in my opening sentence is ?power factor.? But let?s not go there today.
Re: lost for words
wirenut....don't be sorry....as you can tell by the posts, it is difficult to put a definition in "laymens terms". ask a dozen people and you will probably get a dozen answers, many of them close to what you want to know! Go to google.com and type in neutral or common....good (free) advice is hard to find!
By the way....neutral/common.....same or different?
wirenut....don't be sorry....as you can tell by the posts, it is difficult to put a definition in "laymens terms". ask a dozen people and you will probably get a dozen answers, many of them close to what you want to know! Go to google.com and type in neutral or common....good (free) advice is hard to find!
By the way....neutral/common.....same or different?
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