Low voltage ring in high rise for data? legal?

[sgtsparky]

Looking for assistance: with new construction. I always use metal boxes for commercial construction (+3 story's)
I am currently working for a medical center with a Highrise and found plastic low voltage rings (old work style, 2 different brands).
I do not believe these are legal however I cannot find a code reference.
The building is class 1 fire restive, so I do not believe the low voltage rings (not a box) should be allowed in the building at all.
One of the contractors told me they don't use them in the 1- or 2-hour fire walls but do use them in some areas.
The UL listing says 0 hours fire rated. I have searched NFPA 70 ,99 & 101 but have not found a allowance to use them or not to use them i am especially concerned with patient areas. Anyone have a code reff ? structural building or electrical. I still plan on using metal handy boxes with battleships as that was specified.
I am concerned with the rings in use and the director asked what code do they violate? the carlon SC100RR UL listing E216492 was no help i did not look up the arlington LV2 rings, might try today.

 

[hbiss]

No LV rings are fire rated. How could they be?

One of the contractors told me they don't use them in the 1- or 2-hour fire walls but do use them in some areas.

What would be correct. A non-fire rated partition is what they are designed for.

If you want to cut-in a steel box instead, nothing wrong with that either, but it isn't going to offer much more fire resistance.

-Hal

 

[sgtsparky]

No LV rings are fire rated. How could they be?



What would be correct. A non-fire rated partition is what they are designed for.

If you want to cut-in a steel box instead, nothing wrong with that either, but it isn't going to offer much more fire resistance.

-Hal

I understand this but are not all portions of a class 1 structure required to be approved as “fire resistive”. Rings would not meet that in my opinion this is what I was looking for an answer on I do have a meeting with the inspector next week to finalize my master electrical permit for 2022 and start 23…

 

[cadpoint]

It's been a while since I worked with Fire walls the way we did it was with pipe but it seems your job is beyond this so
in your case MCI-A steel armor – Metal Clad Cable, (a Manufactures name) but the green stuff. One can buy it empty.

All Pre-sheet rock.
For a single device we'd use a deep 4 Sq. box and a single deep raised device cover and fire puddy the inside of the box after the wire pull.
If you needed a duplex it was a 4 11.16 box with a two gang cover and a two gang deep raised cover and fire puddy.

Post Sheet Rocked
But it seems that one will need flush covers for any cut-in type application in these rated class walls, One would still need to fire puddy the inside
of your box in any rated walls. Jumbo devices covers are a must if one is cutting into an existing rated walls.






The deep single device ring is sometimes referred to as a tile ring, I've never seen the additional metal (stand-off guides additional metal clips)

I hope this helps!

 

[hbiss]

I understand this but are not all portions of a class 1 structure required to be approved as “fire resistive”.

I think you are confusing building occupancy with fire resistance. Class 1 refers to the type of occupancy and that varies with your municipality.

Further, fire resistive and fire rated are two different things. In Type I construction, key building elements are constructed of non-combustible materials to comply with a fire resistance rating of Type I construction.

All classes of construction can have fire rated floors, ceilings and partitions (demising partitions). It is these that you need to be concerned with when cutting openings.

Where I am they have begun requiring signs on the outside of single family homes indicating the type of construction for roofs and floors so that firefighters know what to expect.

-Hal

 

[sgtsparky]

I think you are confusing building occupancy with fire resistance. Class 1 refers to the type of occupancy and that varies with your municipality.

Further, fire resistive and fire rated are two different things. In Type I construction, key building elements are constructed of non-combustible materials to comply with a fire resistance rating of Type I construction.

All classes of construction can have fire rated floors, ceilings and partitions (demising partitions). It is these that you need to be concerned with when cutting openings.

Where I am they have begun requiring signs on the outside of single family homes indicating the type of construction for roofs and floors so that firefighters know what to expect.

-Hal

Maybe I should have been more specific, it is catagory 1 occupancy with type 1 fire resistive construction (a high rise hospital by definition).
I have only been here a little over a year, it is a newer structure 2008 but designed in 05-06. I thought the 08 code would apply but it is the 2012 for nfpa 99 and 101 life safety
Yes anything new requires current code from the commercial kitchen, life safety, parking structure and health care facility to name a few of the nfpa codes I have to sort through.
I have my inspection tomorrow for my master electrical permit and so far I can not find a code problem in a patient room wall with low voltage rings as the hallways or passages are all 1 hour and main egress is 2 hour walls but the patient side is not rated so a fire in the wall the plastic low voltage ring would fall out when it got warm.

 

[sgtsparky]

Ok time to provide what my inspector said.
We are correct the low voltage openings are code compliant into a patient space as long as the 1 and 2 hour firewalls are on the opposing wall are properly penetrated, and sealed.
To me it sounds sketchy that a plastic low voltage ring is allowed on the patient side as long as they were not fire rated walls.
I don’t think I would use the plastic cut in old work “Not a box” , at a minimum a metal one that is cheaper and tougher in my opinion, but the last box of metal ones were .55 or less if memory serves but that was bulk quantity and prices for plastic are crazy so I still like metal, oh well

 

[cadpoint]

I was following this with much interest. I couldn’t believe the response of the inspector.
OK that’s not how I remember it.

I looked tonight after the response you stated cause I didn’t understand the response of putting a plastic ring in a rated assembly.

So I fired up my favorite search engine.

All gypsum manufacturers will show extensive details of types of construction.
Stating various UL ratings and even some ASTM references.

Then I looked at various penetrations using fire stop materials noteing more ASTM references.

Welp that lead to this link. Via a search of:
ASTM requirement where a single electrical box is installed in a fire rated wall

https://irp.cdn-website.com/7acbe9a...ide_Protection_Recessed_Boxes_Rated_Walls.pdf.

Your relief is listed three times from what I read it and stopped reading. In the paragraph after
1. Steel electrical boxes that do not exceed 16 sq. in. Pg. 3
2) Steel electrical boxes that exceed 16 sq. in. Pg. 4

Last paragraph of Pg 5 another summary.

So yes, use a steel box and space 24” away from any another box on the other side of the wall, you're good.

 

[sgtsparky]

I was following this with much interest. I couldn’t believe the response of the inspector.
OK that’s not how I remember it.

I looked tonight after the response you stated cause I didn’t understand the response of putting a plastic ring in a rated assembly.

So I fired up my favorite search engine.

All gypsum manufacturers will show extensive details of types of construction.
Stating various UL ratings and even some ASTM references.

Then I looked at various penetrations using fire stop materials noteing more ASTM references.

Welp that lead to this link. Via a search of:
ASTM requirement where a single electrical box is installed in a fire rated wall

https://irp.cdn-website.com/7acbe9a...ide_Protection_Recessed_Boxes_Rated_Walls.pdf.

Your relief is listed three times from what I read it and stopped reading. In the paragraph after
1. Steel electrical boxes that do not exceed 16 sq. in. Pg. 3
2) Steel electrical boxes that exceed 16 sq. in. Pg. 4

Last paragraph of Pg 5 another summary.

So yes, use a steel box and space 24” away from any another box on the other side of the wall, you're good.

Thanks, the wall on the patient side is not fire rated, the wall on the hallway is a minimum of 1 hour and sometimes 2 hour rated. The building is fire resistant we do use metal on the fire walls I thought the patient wall should have metal boxes but apparently not. I was aware of the spacing in a fire wall. We are removing the plastic and installing metal brackets at least the screws that hold through through the Sheetrock to the metal fold over clip will hold better than the plastic ones I found. But thanks again I guess I was not clear enough. Fire wall , void, non fire wall patient.