LV Smoke Detectors

[gadfly56]

Is there any properly listed "interface" device to be installed at the panel location, that could be utilitized to re-use 88 existing Simplex 2-wire smokes (1988 vintage) with a replacement HSN 5208 FACP? The existing Simplex 4000 series panel is no longer reliable nor economically serviceable so we want to change it out, but the vendor is telling me that all of the 88 smokes have to be replaced due to non-compatibility with the new panel. Many are in very high bays, and very expensive to replace.

As a state agency Project Manager I am required to be diligent in determining whether or not such replacements of currently working devices are, in fact, necessary. I am aware of the SD500-SDM device, but the compatibility list does not include Simplex-devices.

You're going to have a real hard time hooking up the SD500-SDM to the 5208 since the 5208 is a conventional 10-zone panel and the module is for an addressable panel. You would be looking at the 5700, 5808, 5820XL, or any of the IFP series of panels. And yes, you are stuck replacing the devices. By the way, if these devices are so high in the air that it's a major expense to replace them, they may not be suitable for the space anyway. Smoke cools as it rises and, depending on the particulars for your site such as size of the open area and how hot the fire is and kind of fuel, etc, will start to stratify at 30+/- feet in the air. Better to use a beam detector in that case.

 

[Jaycom]

SD type (PE vs POC) mix for high bay areas?

SD type (PE vs POC) mix for high bay areas?

[Smoke cools as it rises and, depending on the particulars for your site such as size of the open area and how hot the fire is and kind of fuel, etc, will start to stratify at 30+/- feet in the air. Better to use a beam detector in that case.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the confirmation on legacy smokes and new panels. Helpful. Also, you raise an intriguing question for me on re-fitting point smoke detectors into our high-bay gymnasium and commons areas in this high school. Ceiling height is 30 feet. The AHJ (not particularly sophisticated--small town) has approved one-for-one replacement of the existing array of point smokes. You suggested beam detection (SK-Beam) as a replacement. I will look into that further with the vendor.

First Question. In a standard school Gym am I likely to see lower cost by installing beam devices than by replacement of the full compliment of PE smokes? What about false alarm reliability?

Second Question. If we stay with the point detectors, would mixing ionization (products of combustion) with PE be helpful to overcome the stratification. They are all PE now.

Thanks for your help.

 

[nhfire77]

First Question. In a standard school Gym am I likely to see lower cost by installing beam devices than by replacement of the full compliment of PE smokes?

No beam is almost always cheaper, but you probably don't have to do smokes in a gym. If, the building is fully sprinkled you probably don't have to. I am not saying you don't, but....

What about false alarm reliability?

Better actually, than spot type, the newer devices are intelligent and compensate for issues. But the thing you need to account for in a gym in physical damage to the detector and any possible transient obstructions (i.e. balloons or a fog machine for a school play etc.). You should read system sensors application and white papers on smokes if you want to learn a little about beam detectors. (since you mentioned SK-Beam as as part)

Also smoke stratification would need to be taken into account, you may need to layer the beam detectors based on ceiling height and an FPE evaluation.

Second Question. If we stay with the point detectors, would mixing ionization (products of combustion) with PE be helpful to overcome the stratification. They are all PE now.

No, ion is not going to help you. If you stick with spot type detectors you might have to space them out vertically as well as horizontally. See 72 annex A and B.

There is a lot to consider with smoke detection in a large area with ceiling heights over 30 feet, as previously noted, however if the ceiling is 30 feet or less you can use prescriptive coverage in lieu of engineering if you choose.

Thanks for your help.

 

[gadfly56]

[Smoke cools as it rises and, depending on the particulars for your site such as size of the open area and how hot the fire is and kind of fuel, etc, will start to stratify at 30+/- feet in the air. Better to use a beam detector in that case.

Thanks for the confirmation on legacy smokes and new panels. Helpful. Also, you raise an intriguing question for me on re-fitting point smoke detectors into our high-bay gymnasium and commons areas in this high school. Ceiling height is 30 feet. The AHJ (not particularly sophisticated--small town) has approved one-for-one replacement of the existing array of point smokes. You suggested beam detection (SK-Beam) as a replacement. I will look into that further with the vendor.

First Question. In a standard school Gym am I likely to see lower cost by installing beam devices than by replacement of the full compliment of PE smokes? What about false alarm reliability?

Second Question. If we stay with the point detectors, would mixing ionization (products of combustion) with PE be helpful to overcome the stratification. They are all PE now.

Thanks for your help.

Re First Question:

Possibly. Our selll price for the 1224 w/remote test is about 15-20x the cost of a i3 series 2W-B. But you can install two beam detectors and cover your entire gym (up to 120ft x 230ft) where you would need about 27 point detectors for the same coverage. You save a lot of labor and material that way. Testing is a lot easier too. You could spend half a day or more on a lift testing the point detectors. Ten minutes a piece for the beams with remote test option.