"main" breaker needed in subpanel?

[electrofelon]

You would not need it if it was not a plug in style breaker. but they cost more and are not real common in residences.

Good point though, never thought of that. I cant remember the last time I backfed a branch breaker, and probably never will backfeed a bolt on. Sigh...the list of things I will never get to do

 

[GerryB]

Not sure what exception 2 is you refer to........?
If you look at the article 100 definition of qualified person, I doubt a HO fits that.
I don't see any allowance for placecarding the disco location in this situation.

225.32 excep2
qualified person is not an electrician. I've instructed women over the phone how to reset a breaker in less then 2 minutes.
I didn't say there was any allowance for a placard, just saying we're talking about a detached garage here where the firemen and everyone else knows to completely shut it down, you need to go to the main panel.

 

[electrofelon]

225.32 excep2

qualifying under the provisions of article 685?

qualified person is not an electrician. I've instructed women over the phone how to reset a breaker in less then 2 minutes.
I didn't say there was any allowance for a placard, just saying we're talking about a detached garage here where the firemen and everyone else knows to completely shut it down, you need to go to the main panel.

Looking at what the definition says, I find it a stretch to call a HO qualified. I know a resi system is "simple", but I'm still not seeing it.

 

[GerryB]

qualifying under the provisions of article 685?




Looking at what the definition says, I find it a stretch to call a HO qualified. I know a resi system is "simple", but I'm still not seeing it.

.Meant excep 1. You are right, I agree, and the OP's job was a 100 amp panel for a shop. Little more involved then just a few circuits for lights and plugs.

 

[necGuru]

More than likely? When would you not?

408.36

(D) Back-Fed Devices. Plug-in-type overcurrent protec- tion devices or plug-in type main lug assemblies that are backfed and used to terminate field-installed ungrounded supply conductors shall be secured in place by an addi- tional fastener that requires other than a pull to release the device from the mounting means on the panel.

So basically, we agree.

 

[necGuru]

There has never been enforcement of a disconnecting means located at an outbuilding in the local areas I work in?

2 pole 100 amp breaker from house panel feeds a main lug 20 space sub panel located in a detached pole building or garage.

Have seen it approved that way for 20 years with a number of different inspectors.

So basically, the inspectors for your particular AHJ have been unaware of the code violations that they pass on a regular basis. Please do them (and the citizens) a public service and send them an email copy of this post from the Mike Holt website Forum. :thumbsup: Education is free in the forum.

 

[necGuru]

Not saying it's legal.

I find it hard to believe it's never been enforced.

I'm guilty of the installs myself.

Be better than that. Do it to code, always.

 

[necGuru]

Why wouldn't excep 2 apply for a HO and a detached garage, shop, etc? Single management, (he lives there), documented safe switching procedures??, monitored by qualified individual, (again he lives there and it takes two minutes to show someone if they don't already know how to operate a circuit breaker.) How about a placard like the million the solar guys install, or more than one service to a building you need placards etc. As another said, seen a lot without a disco.

"documented safe switching procedures??"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Let's bastardize the code, shall we?

Would Grandma be able to understand your "documented safe switching procedures?" I think not. Let's make it safe for the ordinary layperson, huh? ALWAYS USE "THE
GRANDMA TEST."

 

[randyo]

Better late than sorry

Better late than sorry

for what its worth, code or no-code, I have been adding a "means of disconnect" on any subpanel for over 20 years...
not because its required, but because its a good and safe idea..
AND, when it is required its also separated from the sub... just because...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

for what its worth, code or no-code, I have been adding a "means of disconnect" on any subpanel for over 20 years...
not because its required, but because its a good and safe idea..
AND, when it is required its also separated from the sub... just because...

It is fine that you do that but what is considered a good and safe idea to you may seem unnecessary and wasteful to others. To my knowledge, there has never been any substantiation that omitting the main breaker in a sub panel has caused issues. I, for one, see no need for it.

I don't mean to be rude but I sounds like you think your way is better but IMO, it is a waste of money. Fact is we all have to do what we feel best about doing.

 

[kwired]

for what its worth, code or no-code, I have been adding a "means of disconnect" on any subpanel for over 20 years...
not because its required, but because its a good and safe idea..
AND, when it is required its also separated from the sub... just because...

It is fine that you do that but what is considered a good and safe idea to you may seem unnecessary and wasteful to others. To my knowledge, there has never been any substantiation that omitting the main breaker in a sub panel has caused issues. I, for one, see no need for it.

I don't mean to be rude but I sounds like you think your way is better but IMO, it is a waste of money. Fact is we all have to do what we feel best about doing.

Distribution panel in the same area as the branch circuit panel -- not a significant difference between having main breaker or main lugs - there is a disconnecting means right there either way.

 

[kwired]

Thanks for your help.

I guess it is required since, "The disconnecting means shall be at a readily
accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors"

The current disconnect is inside of the house panel, which is not the nearest the point of entrance of the conductors.

Do you know if this is a recent change because I have seen hundreds of detached garages with the only disconnect inside of the panel attached to the home?

Keep in mind the rule is the same whether it be a detached garage at a dwelling with only a 60 amp supply circuit as it is for a separate building at an industrial site with a 2000 amp supply circuit. NEC sees both as a separate building or structure and applies same rule to either.

 

[sameguy]

Next your going to tell me my male/male generator cord is wrong too!
I too think a lot of the code is slowly being made for do it yourselfers, i.e. 14/3 to a light fixture opening, tape the white on a hot feed to a switch.
My shop has a 125a mlo sub no disco. and well over 6 breakers; but I do fit the exception.

 

[packersparky]

Next your going to tell me my male/male generator cord is wrong too!
I too think a lot of the code is slowly being made for do it yourselfers, i.e. 14/3 to a light fixture opening, tape the white on a hot feed to a switch.
My shop has a 125a mlo sub no disco. and well over 6 breakers; but I do fit the exception.

225.32 Exception No. 1 is for the location of the disconnect(s), not the number.

The number of disconnects is covered in 225.33(A) and it is highly unlikely you would meet the exception.

 

[kwired]

225.32 Exception No. 1 is for the location of the disconnect(s), not the number.

The number of disconnects is covered in 225.33(A) and it is highly unlikely you would meet the exception.

I agree.