Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

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walt763

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Quick question on converting a 3 way to a 4way. Would it be a against NEC 300.3 to loop the travellers down to the 4ways in a basement using 2 wire NM and come back up to the same box that the 3way is located. In essence it would be extending the travellers to add in the 4 way swithes. The hot and the fixture are fed into and out of this box that the 3 way is now located. The inspector says it would not be code and would have to have 3 wire cable going through all the boxes. :confused:
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

As long as you identify the white wires as Ungrounded conductors (Coloring them red for instance) I don't see a problem.

Dave
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Thanks for the quick response. I already taped the wires identifying them as hot but the inspector is going back to 300.3 saying that all conductors have to be in the same raceway so he is insisting that there be 3 wire run through all the boxes with a slice for the switched wire to the fixture. I know the code is a quirky and open for iterpretation but it seems rather foolish to loop the switched wire down and back up to the same box that the connection is already made! Am I missing something here?
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

300.3 (B) says they must be in the same raceway unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B) 1-4.

300.3(B)(3) Nonferous Wiring Methods says ....where run in different raceways.......comply to 300.20(B).

300.2(B) Talks about single conductors.

A 14-2 NM is not a single conductor.

Unless I'm missing something, I still don't see the problem!

But I've been wrong before...the others can vouch for that! :)

Dave
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Walt,

I agree with Dave.

From a non-NEC vantage, there is a certain wisdom in running the two 14/2 NMBs with each other, closely, to help minimize the electromagnetic field effects.

As far as the NEC is concerned, one 14/2 can come from the East and the other can head off to the West (or any other orientation) which will create a net field for people and things in the immediate vicinity.

With some loads (that have electronic switching at high frequency) the switch loop will make a nice antenna when stretched out, and much less of an antenna when carefully paralleled.
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

wlat763, Is this job location in Arapahoe County in Colorado? I ran into a similar call in this area & no ammount of talking to these inspectors was going to change there minds. However it is not a code violation under Art.200.7(C)(2)States that if you properly re-identify the white conductors to indicate that the white conductors is no longer a grounded conductor you can do this & if you look in the hand book it is even more clear as to why this requirement came about.
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Walt, while i see no nec violation and have ran them that way,i do see that your in SALES if your not a licensed electrician perhaps he is trying to push his weight.I am told there is now 4 wire romex available,however if you already installed this i think your allowed to do it this way.As long as it is re identified.I would go over his head and call his boss.Print out the replies from this tread and ask him just what article # he thinks you violated.
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

The job location is in Hennepin County in Minnesota but the inspector is a state inspector. It appears I am going to have to replace the loop with 3wire just to satisfy him but it sure seems to me to be totally uneccesary. I could understand if it was creating a hazardous or unsafe condition but that isn't the case.
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Keep in mind the hand book is not a code book.It contains nec code and there opinions as to what it meant,and opinions are not part of code.But do show it to him along with the replies from here.And keep us updated.I would only back down if this is holding the job up.
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

The hand book I'm refering to is the "NEC" hand book which is put & published by the "NFPA" which is the same outfit that publishes the "Code" book. :roll:
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

300.3 (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (4).
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

300.3(B)(3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods. Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where run in different raceways, auxiliary gutters, cable trays, trenches, cables, or cords, shall comply with the provisions of 300.20(B). ............
Click to expand...
NM is a non-ferris. :)
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Originally posted by johndeereman:
The hand book I'm refering to is the "NEC" hand book which is put & published by the "NFPA" which is the same outfit that publishes the "Code" book. :roll:
Click to expand...
I used to think it had weight too until I read the Notice Concerning Code Interpretations. on the second page.
..."The commentary and supplementary materials in this handbook are not a part of the Code and do not constitute Formal Interpretaions of the NFPA"....

Not sure where you are but here the Electrical Chapter in the Florida Building Code says "See NFPA 2002 NEC. (No mention of the handbook)
It's a cool book though, I have one!

JW, you forgot to highlight unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (4). That's an important part!

Dave
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

There is nothing wrong with coloring the grounded conductor to use it as an ungrounded conductor, the problem is that you ARE violating 300.3. It would be a different story if the (2) 3-ways were wired with the switch leg in one location and the power source at the other....that's why I dislike the practice of putting both in one box...let alone the wire fill potential problems....I would say that you MUST run the travellers in one cable assembly in order to comply with Code.
Anyway, that's ONE inspector's opinion....
 
Re: Making a 3 way switch a 4 way

Originally posted by wwebb:
There is nothing wrong with coloring the grounded conductor to use it as an ungrounded conductor, the problem is that you ARE violating 300.3.
Click to expand...
Can you explain how 300.3 is being violated?

Keep in mind 300.3(B)(3)
 
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