Man electrocuted in Lake Lanier

[don_resqcapt19]

I am confused.
Doesn't the code cover this with GFI protected outlets installed near water environments? As I recall the GF current that flows in the water is limited to 5 MA before it trips the circuit. Low enough for people protection. Or are we seeing people dying in spite of this protection?

The 5 mA does not apply to lakes and rivers. 555.3 in the 2017 code required 30 mA protection for feeders and branch circuits for those types of applications. In the 2020 those requirements were moved to 555.35 and requires 30 mA protection for shore power receptacles and 100 mA protection for feeders and branch circuits. They reworded it a bit, but the 2023 rule is pretty much the same as the 2020.
This is partly based on the American Boat & Yacht Council's (ABYC) voluntary boat construction standards that requires 30 mA protection in the boat. There is just too much leakage current to make 5 mA GFCIs work.
Note the the 30 mA devices are GFPE and they have no time to trip requirements like GFCIs do.

 

[letgomywago]

The 5 mA does not apply to lakes and rivers. 555.3 in the 2017 code required 30 mA protection for feeders and branch circuits for those types of applications. In the 2020 those requirements were moved to 555.35 and requires 30 mA protection for shore power receptacles and 100 mA protection for feeders and branch circuits. They reworded it a bit, but the 2023 rule is pretty much the same as the 2020.
This is partly based on the American Boat & Yacht Council's (ABYC) voluntary boat construction standards that requires 30 mA protection in the boat. There is just too much leakage current to make 5 mA GFCIs work.
Note the the 30 mA devices are GFPE and they have no time to trip requirements like GFCIs do.

And even though it may not shut your heart down 30ma is still enough to cause serious damage to the nerves there so you wouldn't want it through your heart anyway.

 

[Joethemechanic]

I remember seeing this before. If I remember right they are using an unbonded SDS (generator0 but I can't find that picture. Safe???

 

[Sea Nile]

A properly bonded dock is actually less safe if the voltage is not originating from a source not from it.

Absolutely! This is a situation where doing something correctly on your dock will create a hazard from somebody elses faulty dock.

Everything has a trade off, because we use a grounded system in our grid to prevent the issues of an ungrounded system, we've created another risk of current taking whatever paths are avalible to get back to their source. And with everything bonded and grounded, there are many paths electrons can take to get back to their source. If your neighbor has a hot wire in the water and no return path to the source, it's easy for the current to go through the water to your grounded and bonded dock and get back to its source.

I live right down the road from Lake Lanier BTW

 

[Fred B]

Absolutely! This is a situation where doing something correctly on your dock will create a hazard from somebody elses faulty dock.

Everything has a trade off, because we use a grounded system in our grid to prevent the issues of an ungrounded system, we've created another risk of current taking whatever paths are avalible to get back to their source. And with everything bonded and grounded, there are many paths electrons can take to get back to their source. If your neighbor has a hot wire in the water and no return path to the source, it's easy for the current to go through the water to your grounded and bonded dock and get back to its source.

I live right down the road from Lake Lanier BTW

The source of current could include a faulty POCO system near the body of water.
These issues create a big problem in having any power near a body of water that might have swimmers. Thus Signage requirements in the 2020 NFPA70 at 555.10. One source indicates it wants signage even out 100ft from dock on floating buoys.
Most people when encountering a current in the water not knowing what it is will try to "get out" and likely head toward the nearest dock, that is also the likely source, and as they get closer the "shock" increases in intensity until swimming is no longer possible and drowning occurs.

New issue is developing as I'm getting people buying Electric Boats (EV's) that are wanting level 2 charging stations out at the dock. Seems that the code needs to start to look at these potential risks, as the ones I've encountered don't "get along" with GF protection.

 

[brantmacga]

My suggestion for everyone ... stay out of the water, salt or fresh. When I go into my pool, I shut off the power.

That does literally nothing to protect you from electric shock. You could de-energize the entire service and still get electrocuted in the pool.

 

[hillbilly1]

The source of current could include a faulty POCO system near the body of water.
These issues create a big problem in having any power near a body of water that might have swimmers. Thus Signage requirements in the 2020 NFPA70 at 555.10. One source indicates it wants signage even out 100ft from dock on floating buoys.
Most people when encountering a current in the water not knowing what it is will try to "get out" and likely head toward the nearest dock, that is also the likely source, and as they get closer the "shock" increases in intensity until swimming is no longer possible and drowning occurs.

New issue is developing as I'm getting people buying Electric Boats (EV's) that are wanting level 2 charging stations out at the dock. Seems that the code needs to start to look at these potential risks, as the ones I've encountered don't "get along" with GF protection.

At least they have gf protection built in on the load side. But you still have to deal with the line side. Lake Windward does not allow IC engines other than EMS, so all the boats out there are electric.
So now they are doing level 2 for boats now? I can see that if they use it frequently. It’s probably the self test function that’s giving the problems.

 

[junkhound]

reference point

take 2 buckets of 14% salt water. isolation transformer 120 V inseries with 5.6 kohm resistor, to either bucket with wire to conductive plate in bottom of buckets. stick in yer bare feet, turn on the power, about 20 mA thru you.

sensation is of 2 red hot burning wires at water level !. turn off power, no sensation.

disclaimer: do this only with defribrilator and doctor on standby, ..... aka berglemeister..

 

[mtnelect]

That does literally nothing to protect you from electric shock. You could de-energize the entire service and still get electrocuted in the pool.

With all of the gradients floating around from the utilities to a neighbor's defective service, I agree with you. But, in my mind it lessens the risk, but doesn't eliminate it.

 

[Joethemechanic]

reference point

take 2 buckets of 14% salt water. isolation transformer 120 V inseries with 5.6 kohm resistor, to either bucket with wire to conductive plate in bottom of buckets. stick in yer bare feet, turn on the power, about 20 mA thru you.

sensation is of 2 red hot burning wires at water level !. turn off power, no sensation.

disclaimer: do this only with defribrilator and doctor on standby, ..... aka berglemeister..

So one wire connected to one plate in the bottom of one bucket? Assuming an ungrounded, unbonded secondary, what is the current path? I don't see one unless there is insulation leakage from the primary.

And not sure on the resistor. Wouldn't it be easier to just reduce the salt concentration to make the water less conductive?

 

[winnie]

Two buckets, two leads, two feet. The salt water provides solid contact through the skin to the body. The resistor limits the current. Far easier than trying to titrate the salt level just right to get high resistance.

Also: DON'T FORKING DO THIS!!!!!

 

[Joethemechanic]

Ok, so quick off the top pf my head estimate that's 5.5 pounds of salt in 4 gallons of water. That sound right to you?

 

[Sea Nile]

Hello Darwin Awards, can you get this on camera????

 

[Joethemechanic]

Hello Darwin Awards, can you get this on camera????

My dad had had a friend who was an electrician in the mines. He tested for the presence of voltage by backslapping live stuff. He told me that was the way he was taught when he started. If he was still alive he'd be about 100, so I'm guessing he'd have started in the 1940's

Safety standards have changed a lot in 80 years

 

[letgomywago]

My dad had had a friend who was an electrician in the mines. He tested for the presence of voltage by backslapping live stuff. He told me that was the way he was taught when he started. If he was still alive he'd be about 100, so I'm guessing he'd have started in the 1940's

Safety standards have changed a lot in 80 years

Not quite as dangerous before equipment grounds but still no bueno

 

[retirede]

Ok, so quick off the top pf my head estimate that's 5.5 pounds of salt in 4 gallons of water. That sound right to you?

I get about 4-3/4 pounds in 4 gal.

And that’s a really high concentration. IIRC, sea water is about 40,000 PPM.

 

[Joethemechanic]

I get about 4-3/4 pounds in 4 gal.

And that’s a really high concentration. IIRC, sea water is about 40,000 PPM.

I'll have to check it by specific gravity once it disolves. At 60 F the specific gravity of 14% salt water is

1.08145

Here's a fun fact

Salton Sea salinity is about 44,000 mg/L, that is approximately 4.4% salt.

 

[retirede]

I'll have to check it by specific gravity once it disolves. At 60 F the specific gravity of 14% salt water is

1.08145

Here's a fun fact

I was just going by weight, using water at 8.4 pounds per gallon.

Yeah, the Salton Sea puts the oceans to shame, salinity-wise.

 

[GoldDigger]

Hello Darwin Awards, can you get this on camera????

Sure, hold my beer......

 

[Sberry]

Cases I have heard about was a simple faulty install and often tampered with by maint men. I believe one had simple missing bond at service.