Max number of recepts per circuit

[colosparker]

A local inspector can legally require x number of receptacles on a branch circuit in a residence. The NEC is just a minumum requirement. If the inspector says you can't put four rooms on one AFCI, he is probably basing it on local codes (rules). A local building code can and will supersede any NEC requirements. Same with any codes,whether it's plumbing, building,HVAC, electrical, etc. All kinds of factors including enviroment, economic, seismic, weather, insurance companies, local business groups, etc. drive local codes. They are every bit as enforceable as the NEC, if not more so.

Every jurisdiction (20+)I have wired homes in over the past 26 years has had their rules for number of opening on a genral lighting branch circuit in a residence. We had jurisdictions that would not allow romex. Some jurisdictions would not allow 14 gauge wire in a residence. I remember one town that required a disconnect (switch) for a dishwasher. Some of them wanted 14 opening on a circuit, I remember a few that would only allow 10 openings. You knew the rules before you wired the homes.

 

[steve66]

If the circuit serving 4 bedrooms serves a much larger area than other general purpose circuits in the panelboard, then I believe it is a violation of 210.11(B). I am, however, having a hard time understanding what the last sentence of that section is trying to tell us. Any ideas?

That is what I was talking about. It pretty much says 210.11B only applies for everything up to the feeder and panelboard. It doesn't apply to branch circuits at all.

So say your 3VA/sq foot calc for the 4 bedrooms gives 5KVA. Your feeder has to be good for the 5KVA, but you could put all 4 bedrooms on a single circuit since the connected load could be zero.

Steve

 

[eprice]

That is what I was talking about. It pretty much says 210.11B only applies for everything up to the feeder and panelboard. It doesn't apply to branch circuits at all.

So say your 3VA/sq foot calc for the 4 bedrooms gives 5KVA. Your feeder has to be good for the 5KVA, but you could put all 4 bedrooms on a single circuit since the connected load could be zero.

Steve

Well, reading it that way, it would not require any circuit for the 4 bedrooms, since the connected load could be zero. In fact, it would allow the omition of all general purpose branch circuits in the home since there is no known connected load. I think there is something else it is intended to say.

I looked back in previous code editions. In the 1978 NEC, section 220-3 contained a requirement essentially the same as what we're discussing here, but this last sentence was not there. In 1984, this last sentence is there and is not marked as being a change. So, it must have been added in the 1981 NEC, of which I do not have a copy. Does anyone have access to the ROP for the 1981 edition? I would be interested to have some reference as to the purpose of this last sentence.

At any rate, that last sentence, at most, says the circuits are not required to be installed. If general purpose circuits are installed, then the next to last sentence requires the calculated load to be evenly proportioned among them.

 

[roger]

Colosparker, if these requirements are not in formal addendums or in formal adopted codes, a local inspector can not legally require it.

This would be the same as a police officer making up his/her own laws.

The inspector would have to be able to cite a code violation be it local, national, international, or what have you.

A local building code can and will supersede any NEC requirements. Same with any codes,whether it's plumbing, building,HVAC, electrical, etc. All kinds of factors including enviroment, economic, seismic, weather, insurance companies, local business groups, etc. drive local codes. They are every bit as enforceable as the NEC, if not more so.

This part of your post is correct.

Roger

 

[colosparker]

Roger,

When I say "local code". I mean rules, policy ,etc. adopted by the local jurisdiction and put in writing. I agree, an inspector should never be able to make up their own regulations. Some jurisdictions have an Electrical Board or a Chief Electrical Inspector, who make the local rules.
I have seen both forms of governing. The inspector is just the agent of the governing body. I have seen some governing bodies give their agents discretion on the interpretation of the rules. If you don't agree with the inspectors interpretation, you have the right to dispute it with the higher authority.

This discussion was on this board before about how many receptacles can you put on a branch circuit in a residence. Somebody has to draw the line to protect the consumer. For the most part, common sense works. IMO!
Four bedrooms on one circuit breaker. I agree with the inspector on this one. I just think of all of the appliances my daughter plugs into in her room ie. hair dryer, hair iron, hair curler, computer, fan, heater, tv, stereo, fountain, lamp(s), cell phone charger, cordless phone, christmas lights, Playstation just to name a few. She also has the ability to have them all on at the same time. This can only be accomplished with FPE breakers.

Dave

 

[iwire]

Dave you leave me confused.

On the one hand you say that an inspector can not make up rules but then you say

Somebody has to draw the line to protect the consumer. For the most part, common sense works. IMO!
Four bedrooms on one circuit breaker. I agree with the inspector on this one.

The inspector can not 'draw the line' no matter how much commonsense it makes.

Unless there are written amendments the inspector cites or the inspector plays the "don't make me look harder card" and the EC accepts that the consumer is stuck with a poor design.

 

[dnem]

Thanks to everybody for the input !

I'd like to address a few of the issues raised in some of the replies.

David the 180 VA per yoke does not apply to dwelling units at all.

Take a look at 220.3(B)(10)

220.3(B)(10) Dwelling Occupancies.

In one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings and in guest rooms of hotels and motels, the outlets specified in (1), (2), and (3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.3(A). No additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets.

(1)All general-use receptacle outlets of 20-ampere rating or less, including receptacles connected to the circuits in 210.11(C)(3)

(2)The receptacle outlets specified in 210.52(E) and (G)

(3)The lighting outlets specified in 210.70(A) and (B)

Exhibit 220.4 in the hand book applies to non-dwelling occupancies.

iwire, there is no 220.3(B)(10)
Are you quoting 220.14(J) ?
If you are then that is covering:
(1) general-purpose & 210.11(C)(3)[bathroom plugs]
(2) 210.52(E)&(G) [outdoor, basement, & garage]
(3) 210.70(A)&(B) [lighting outlets]

There is nothing here about small appliance circuits. So when you move down to 220.14(L) Other Outlets, this would set other outlets at 180 watts or 1.5 amps per plug. Why wouldn't 220.14(L) apply to residential dwellings ?

 

[peter d]

There is nothing here about small appliance circuits.

SA branch circuits are only required in dwelling units. That is why the 180VA rule doesn't apply.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Reply to Jim

Re: Reply to Jim

Jim,

What would be the proper response for an inspector that has no local code to supplement ?

David

The proper thing for the inspector to do is sign off on it and be quiet. I do it everyday.

 

[dnem]

That is what I was talking about. It pretty much says 210.11B only applies for everything up to the feeder and panelboard. It doesn't apply to branch circuits at all.

So say your 3VA/sq foot calc for the 4 bedrooms gives 5KVA. Your feeder has to be good for the 5KVA, but you could put all 4 bedrooms on a single circuit since the connected load could be zero.

Steve

Well, reading it that way, it would not require any circuit for the 4 bedrooms, since the connected load could be zero. In fact, it would allow the omition of all general purpose branch circuits in the home since there is no known connected load. I think there is something else it is intended to say.

I looked back in previous code editions. In the 1978 NEC, section 220-3 contained a requirement essentially the same as what we're discussing here, but this last sentence was not there. In 1984, this last sentence is there and is not marked as being a change. So, it must have been added in the 1981 NEC, of which I do not have a copy. Does anyone have access to the ROP for the 1981 edition? I would be interested to have some reference as to the purpose of this last sentence.

At any rate, that last sentence, at most, says the circuits are not required to be installed. If general purpose circuits are installed, then the next to last sentence requires the calculated load to be evenly proportioned among them.

"Well, reading it that way, it would not require any circuit for the 4 bedrooms, since the connected load could be zero."

There obviously is a connected load because the NEC requires spacing of 2,6,&12 feet - 210.52(A)(1)&(A)(2)(1) and that connected load is spelled out in Table 220.12 Dwelling units, 3 watts per square foot which is 0.025 amps per square foot. The 600 square feet mentioned earlier in this thread is 600 x 0.025 = 15 amps for a 14 gauge circuit. That also would be 800 x 0.025 = 20 amps for a 12 gauge circuit.

 

[dnem]

Would NEC section 210.11(B) apply here? It reads in part The load shall be evenly proportioned among multioutlet brach circuits within the panelboard. Does this mean that it is not permissable to have 20 general lighting outlets on one circuit and ten on another?

romeo

I believe 210.11(B) does apply here, but I don't think it is applied by counting the number of receptacles. That section specifically talks about "load calculated on the basis of volt-amperes per square meter or per square foot". I think the load is required to be evenly proportioned by having the circuits supply roughly equal floor areas.

If the circuit serving 4 bedrooms serves a much larger area than other general purpose circuits in the panelboard, then I believe it is a violation of 210.11(B). I am, however, having a hard time understanding what the last sentence of that section is trying to tell us. Any ideas?

Last sentence ?
210.11(B) Branch-circuit overcurrent devices and circuits shall only be required to be installed to serve the connected load.

My guess is that this prevents AHJs from dictating service sizes and number of circuits in any house. The connected load is a combination of:
(1) Power (amprage) requirements of all equipment being installed.
(2) Required circuits 210.11(C)
(3) General lighting load Table 220.12
The combination of these 3 will determine service size and number of circuits needed. Anything larger than this is at the desire of the customer and not the dictate of the AHJ.

Am I alone in this thought or do others agree with me ?

David

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

There will always be electrical companies that do the most minimal install they can and thats up to them and the builder.Your choice is who you work for and if you want to be able to say with pride who you work for.I found a company that would never try things like this and have yet to ever hear even one bad word about the company.Most stay with this company for many years.When i find companies that do crappy work i leave fast and never look back.

 

[dnem]

A local inspector can legally require x number of receptacles on a branch circuit in a residence. The NEC is just a minumum requirement. If the inspector says you can't put four rooms on one AFCI, he is probably basing it on local codes (rules). A local building code can and will supersede any NEC requirements. Same with any codes,whether it's plumbing, building,HVAC, electrical, etc. All kinds of factors including enviroment, economic, seismic, weather, insurance companies, local business groups, etc. drive local codes. They are every bit as enforceable as the NEC, if not more so.

Every jurisdiction (20+)I have wired homes in over the past 26 years has had their rules for number of opening on a genral lighting branch circuit in a residence. We had jurisdictions that would not allow romex. Some jurisdictions would not allow 14 gauge wire in a residence. I remember one town that required a disconnect (switch) for a dishwasher. Some of them wanted 14 opening on a circuit, I remember a few that would only allow 10 openings. You knew the rules before you wired the homes.

ANYBODY ELSE OUT THERE FROM OHIO ?

Every last one of you is going to end up in the same situation as me, no electrical code other than NEC. The FBOA [Five-County Building Officials Association of northeast Ohio] of the OBOA [Ohio Building Officials Association] brought in several state government agency reps to the last annual joint conference in Akron in February. We spent several hours going over the new residential code [HB 175] which will start on May 27, 2006. All local codes will become unenforcable by Ohio law on that date.

All of you inspectors thruout the whole state will be asking the same kinds of questions that I'm asking in this thread. All of you Ohio contractors will be competing against hack contractors that will be looking to push the limits. Every inspector in the state will have to answer tough questions about circuiting. Does Table 220.12 limit general purpose recepts to one circuit per 600 square feet or not ? (for 15 amp circuits, 800 square feet for 20 amp circuits) Is this a requirement or just a calc number ? Does 220.14(L) limit small appliance circuits to 13 or not ? (180 watts / 1.5 amps per plug) Is this a requirement or just a calc number ? Does this apply to residential dwellings or not ?

I wouldn't be the only one asking these questions.

All local residential codes are void in every municipality in Ohio on May 27.
Are there other inspectors from Ohio here ?
How are you going to react to overloaded circuits when this new law starts ?

David

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Believe it or not, everyone doesn't want the cheapest bid.The ones that do will hire the guy that puts 4 bedrooms on 1 circuit.The overloaded circuit is still safe but the unhappy homeowner will likely be paying someone to fix it.And depending on there lifestyle it might never trip anyways.

 

[dnem]

Believe it or not, everyone doesn't want the cheapest bid.The ones that do will hire the guy that puts 4 bedrooms on 1 circuit.The overloaded circuit is still safe but the unhappy homeowner will likely be paying someone to fix it.And depending on there lifestyle it might never trip anyways.

You're totally right Jim
but what I'm seeing from this discussion as it goes on is that the different perspective from contractor to inspector is clouding the answers that are being posted.

As a contractor/electrician, your comments quite naturally go back to good trade practice and how you would do the installation. As an inspector, my thoughts have to constantly go back to what is ALLOWED, what is legal. I have to deal with ALL contractors regardless of their desire to provide a quality product or not. It's the hacks that usually leave me scratching my head because I can't do what you do and just pronounce the hack job as bad work that you wouldn't do.

I am FORCED to deal with these issues and forced to only use NEC rules to limit the severity of the bad job by the bad contractor that only cares about the bottom line. I HAVE TO make a decision of what to red tag and what I can't legally stop.

As suggested earlier in this thread, I can go the route of nitpicking the entire job of the person that doesn't want to provide any quality to the homeowner. And I'll keep that option as a last resort. But first I need to see how far the NEC will support me on certain questions. Some one has to look out for the homeowner.

Most homeowners don't know to even look for certain problems until they are suffering with them after the fact. How many homeowners check the circuiting of their house or would even know what they're looking at if they did ? How many homeowners buy specs that were already drywalled before they first came to look at the place ? How many homeowners buy preexisting homes from a previous owner that was too clueless to complain to the builder about 4 bedrooms on one circuit ?

As inspector, I'm the only one that will have a chance to make a difference at the time of the rough for 95% of all homes I inspect. So I'm very interested in how far I can legally push the contractor to do the right thing.

I am far more interested in what exactly the code requires than what my opinion is of the installation. If I was the contractor/electrician on the job, I would be more interested in my opinion is of the installation. As contractor I would have the ability to change the installation according to my opinion.

David

 

[George Stolz]

Every inspector in the state will have to answer tough questions about circuiting.

David, it's always refreshing to see an inspector looking to find the real constraints of the tools (codes) they have to work with.

Does Table 220.12 limit general purpose recepts to one circuit per 600 square feet or not ? (for 15 amp circuits, 800 square feet for 20 amp circuits)

For clarity, a table is only as good as the text referencing it. Section 220.12 makes it evident that for the overall size of the structure (excluding porches and garages), there shall be a minimum number of circuits. The text references measuring from end to end in the unit, not room by room as we might physically lay out a house.

To augment this idea, we have 210.11(A), which again says that the number of circuits shall be sufficient, not so much how we utilize them.

So, IMO, if a house calls for four 15A branch circuits for general lighting and receptacles, then if one branch circuit serves an area exceeding 600 sq. ft., and one next to it that serves a shade less than 600 sq. ft., then there still is not a violation, as long as, in general, the house contains 4 branch circuits for general lighting in the finished (or finishable) portion of the house.

Does 220.14(L) limit small appliance circuits to 13 or not ? (180 watts / 1.5 amps per plug)

No.

220.14(I) specifically references SABC's and Laundry, and specifically excludes them from this rule. SABC's and Laundry circuits are specifically supplying receptacle outlets, that have no other outlets. You will find no "other outlets" (220.14(L)) on these circuits to calculate. So the only section you could apply to them is 220.14(I), which specifically excludes them by name.

Are there other inspectors from Ohio here ?
How are you going to react to overloaded circuits when this new law starts?

I have to say, if they react with the same healthy vigor you have displayed here, I'd be stunned.

 

[George Stolz]

The thing is, a code minimum house is not sexy, it's not even cute.

I have a 1900 +/- sq.ft. house we wire pretty frequently.

Code would call for 3.1 circuits for this house's general lighting and receptacle load.

In reality, it gets:

• Master Suite 15A AFCI
• Bed 2 & 3 15A AFCI
• Hall, Bath, Entry 15A
• Living Room L&O 15A
• Kitchen Lighting 15A
• Basement 15A
• Garage & Ext. Lights 15A

Really, by code, even if we were to conclude that a circuit would cover no more than 600 sq.ft., then that could cover 4 150 sq.ft. bedrooms. That's four 12'x12' bedrooms.

Would anybody here ever admit to doing that? No. Is it legal?

 

[eprice]

There obviously is a connected load because the NEC requires spacing of 2,6,&12 feet - 210.52(A)(1)&(A)(2)(1) and that connected load is spelled out in Table 220.12 Dwelling units, 3 watts per square foot which is 0.025 amps per square foot. The 600 square feet mentioned earlier in this thread is 600 x 0.025 = 15 amps for a 14 gauge circuit. That also would be 800 x 0.025 = 20 amps for a 12 gauge circuit.

I don't agree. The 3 volt-amperes per square foot is a calculated load, an anticipated load. Lights installed on lighting circuits would be connected load. A receptacle installed on a general purpose circuit, but having nothing plugged in is not a load. It is just a convenient place where a load can be connected if desired. A circuit serving only receptacle outlets has no connected load until something is plugged in. Through most of 210.11(B), the code talks about calculated load, but then, in the last sentence it begins talking about connected load, which in this case, is not the same.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

All an inspector can and should do is inforce the nec.As the letting small things slide is up to him.If he nit picks the guy who does a 4 bedroom on 1 circuit then great.Other than that he has done his job.We all have seen garbage work that passes code.Nothing we can do about it.

 

[allenwayne]

Jim have you ever had an inspector say to you that they would like to see something even a minor item that would take a few seconds to do.But the sane inspector has signed off inspections on your word that the factual nec violation will be corrected.I`m not saying that go along with the red tag for 4 br`s on one afci.But sometimes we get a whole lot more bees with honey than vinegar.