Max number of recepts per circuit

[charlie b]

Dave, I am about to give up on trying to make you understand. All I have been saying, and all that some others have been saying, is this: the code does not forbid it.

Read the book. The words are not there.

This is not a matter of interpretation. It is a statement of fact.

But there are words that declare that the NEC is not a design manual. If you want to learn how to design residential wiring, you have to go somewhere other than the NEC. If you want to find out how many circuits should be used to power all the lights and receptacles in a house, you have to go somewhere other than the NEC. I did not wire any houses, as you have done, so I learned in a different way than the way that you learned. I learned to design residential wiring by working for an engineering firm that had residential clients. I have also designed wiring for hospitals, prisons, commercial buildings, office buildings, marinas, tug boats, tankers, passenger ships, and a host of others. I don't put more than 10 receptacles on any 20 amp branch circuit. In the offices and cubicles of office buildings, where there will be computers on each desk, I limit the receptacles to 4 per circuit. But that was a design choice. I didn't choose to do that because the CODE told me I had to. I chose to do that because it is what I believed to be the right thing to do.

That said, if a word does not appear in the NEC, then by golly it is not there. Once again, all I have been saying is that the words are not there.

By the way, to save you the trouble of looking it up, here is "Charlie's Rule." Although I have claimed the copyright, I have also granted permission for any Forum member to use it for any non-commercial purpose.

Charlie?s Rule of Technical Reading

It doesn?t say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say, and if by chance you are its author, it doesn?t say what you intended it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don?t ask anyone else. Go back and read it, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.

Copyright ? 2005, Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle, WA.

With my permission, Mike Holt has published a version that I revised for the purpose, and he placed it on stickers that he passes out free of charge. Here is that version:

Charlie's Rule for Reading the NEC

It doesn't say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say. If by chance you are an instructor, it doesn't say what you have been teaching that it says.

Then what does it say? It says what it says! So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don't ask anyone what it says. Go back and read it again, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.

If you don?t like what it says, then get involved and try to change it. In the process, you might discover that it says exactly what it should be saying.

Copyright ? 2005, Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle, WA.

 

[roger]

Dave, I have never met Mike. The reason we may parrot each other in this thread is because we are right.

Now, it sure seems that your panties are in wad and are getting more wadded up with every post, this is evident with the innuendo's and cheap shots you keep taking.

I guess the conclusion those in your office and yourself have come too

will be the way you will have to do things, but not the rest of us.

Don't let this thing bother you so much, you'll end up pulling all your hair out.

You will simply have to live with the fact that we don't let inspectors make up their own rules in other parts of the country with out doing it through the proper formalities.

Get over it for crying out loud, your loosing your dignity here.

BTW, I do know Mike and myself have more than any 25 - 30 years in this trade, I have 32 and Mike has been at it longer than myself



Roger

 

[lady sparks lover]

lady sparks lover:

Would you mind explaining to me just what a Building wiring engineer does. Your name hints that you love sparks. I saw sparks yesterday from a xfmr in one of our sub stations. I didn't like it at all. At my age I do not like working more than 8 hr.

BTW I love your signature.
Engineer by trade, Lady by choice
New Jersey Gal

Same thing an electrical engineer does. Wire buildings, and provide a lighting layout. At my new job (yes, my new job and I love it here) we do both lighting design, and power distribution.

Thanks, for the compliment on my signature. I had to put something that stood out, because I'm a lady. :mrgreen:

I hope I'm still in the trade at your age....it's getting harder to deal with the burocracy (sp?).

 

[dlhoule]

I hope I'm still in the trade at your age....it's getting harder to deal with the burocracy

Hey Lady,

Are you insinuating that I am old?

Have a wonderful Weekend!

 

[colosparker]

Dave, I am about to give up on trying to make you understand. All I have been saying, and all that some others have been saying, is this: the code does not forbid it.

Read the book. The words are not there.

This is not a matter of interpretation. It is a statement of fact.

But there are words that declare that the NEC is not a design manual. If you want to learn how to design residential wiring, you have to go somewhere other than the NEC. If you want to find out how many circuits should be used to power all the lights and receptacles in a house, you have to go somewhere other than the NEC. I did not wire any houses, as you have done, so I learned in a different way than the way that you learned. I learned to design residential wiring by working for an engineering firm that had residential clients. I have also designed wiring for hospitals, prisons, commercial buildings, office buildings, marinas, tug boats, tankers, passenger ships, and a host of others. I don't put more than 10 receptacles on any 20 amp branch circuit. In the offices and cubicles of office buildings, where there will be computers on each desk, I limit the receptacles to 4 per circuit. But that was a design choice. I didn't choose to do that because the CODE told me I had to. I chose to do that because it is what I believed to be the right thing to do.

That said, if a word does not appear in the NEC, then by golly it is not there. Once again, all I have been saying is that the words are not there.

By the way, to save you the trouble of looking it up, here is "Charlie's Rule." Although I have claimed the copyright, I have also granted permission for any Forum member to use it for any non-commercial purpose.

Charlie?s Rule of Technical Reading

It doesn?t say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say, and if by chance you are its author, it doesn?t say what you intended it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don?t ask anyone else. Go back and read it, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.

Copyright ? 2005, Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle, WA.

With my permission, Mike Holt has published a version that I revised for the purpose, and he placed it on stickers that he passes out free of charge. Here is that version:

Charlie's Rule for Reading the NEC

It doesn't say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say. If by chance you are an instructor, it doesn't say what you have been teaching that it says.

Then what does it say? It says what it says! So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don't ask anyone what it says. Go back and read it again, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.

If you don?t like what it says, then get involved and try to change it. In the process, you might discover that it says exactly what it should be saying.

Copyright ? 2005, Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle, WA.

Charlie

Are you the AHJ for the country? Now you are giving me a "fact" based on your opinion of a book. I suggest you read your quote, and apply it to your logic. Are we discussing a book, or are we discussing the NEC and the applications in the real world?

You are limited in some of the examples of structures you designed. Anything better is a matter of design, I agree. The limits are enforced by the people who use the NEC to approve your design, in your case. Not the other way around.

I still strongly suggest you read through the Seattle Residential Building Code. I can think of one word I found that contradicts your entire logic.
Keep in mind my discussion is within the practical use of the NEC and within the confines of the AHJ. Not just an opinion of a book. You can argue all day that some book gives you the right to put all these receptacles on one circuit. It is another thing entirely to actually do such a thing; quote the NEC, and get away with it. I don't know how else to explain that very simple fact to you. Even you agree it's not such a good idea. Stop, think! What do you think the AHJ has to say about it???Does the AHJ not have a right to rule on this matter, Charlie? That is why I ask if you are the AHJ for the country. If so, my apologies :lol:

BTW, I have read something similar to your quote, but I do not recall your name.


Dave

 

[colosparker]

Dave, I have never met Mike. The reason we may parrot each other in this thread is because we are right.

Now, it sure seems that your panties are in wad and are getting more wadded up with every post, this is evident with the innuendo's and cheap shots you keep taking.

I guess the conclusion those in your office and yourself have come too

will be the way you will have to do things, but not the rest of us.

Don't let this thing bother you so much, you'll end up pulling all your hair out.

You will simply have to live with the fact that we don't let inspectors make up their own rules in other parts of the country with out doing it through the proper formalities.

Get over it for crying out loud, your loosing your dignity here.

BTW, I do know Mike and myself have more than any 25 - 30 years in this trade, I have 32 and Mike has been at it longer than myself



Roger

Roger/Mike,

Come on now. Panties in a wad, cheap shots?

Lose my diginity? :lol:

I'm just entertaining myself on a code discussion forum. No more, no less. Sorry if your feeling got hurt. :wink:

Have a great weekend

Dave

 

[colosparker]

Hey Dave,

I moved to Colorado fromTexas in the 90's and took ribbing about being an electrician from Texas for years

.

I figure there must be a lot of really good people down there in Texas.

I haven't noticed any of the good ones leaving yet.

Sometimes I just can't help myself. Have a Great Week end!

dhoule

You're right. All of the good ones stayed. :lol: I got out during the first Bush collapse. I have been tainted by Colorado, so I am no longer welcome in Texas. Go figure. How's work up in Michigan?


Have a great weekend.

Dave

 

[charlie b]

Now you are giving me a "fact" based on your opinion of a book.

No, I am giving you what I assert to be a fact: that there are no words in the NEC that establish a limit on the number of receptacles in a dwelling unit branch circuit. If you wish to contradict this "assertion of fact," then show me the words.

But show me NEC words. Don't talk to me about the Seattle Residential Building Code. I am employed in the field of Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering now. I no longer design buildings, and I have no use for that code. If that code has words that establish a limit that the NEC does not establish, I am not aware of the words, and I have no professional reason to care.

This thread is about what is, and what is not, in the NEC.

You can argue all day that some book gives you the right to put all these receptacles on one circuit. It is another thing entirely to actually do such a thing; quote the NEC, and get away with it.

No one, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, has said they have ever done so, or tried to do so, or wanted to do so. The ONLY point is an academic point, and the point is that there are no words in the NEC to forbid it.

Does the AHJ not have a right to rule on this matter, Charlie?

The AHJ has no right to make a ruling that exceeds the authority granted to that person (or that organization) in accordance with applicable law.

 

[colosparker]

Roger/Mike

BTW, can you supply me with that link to your states residential building code. Something free, I don't want to have to pay for the thing to make a point. :lol: I need some reading material for the weekend. :wink:

Again, you two guys have a really great weekend! :lol: I could have sworn you are twins :lol:

Dave
(opinions are my own and not intended to be a "cheap shot" or suggest my "panties" are wadded)

 

[jwelectric]

Dave I would like to thank you for the compliment. Roger is a fine and outstanding electrician and I understand one of the foremost authorities with his knowledge of Article 517. To be compared as his twin is a very high compliment again thank you.

If you have a copy of the 2005 NEC it is the electrical code of the great state of NC. If you would like to have a copy of the NC Residential code send me your email address in a PM and I will send it to you.

Notice that the NC Residential code has deleted the following:
Part VIII-Electrical Deleted
CHAPTER 33 GENERAL REQUIREMENTS. ????????.. Deleted
CHAPTER 34 ELECTRICAL DEFINITIONS . . ????????.Deleted
CHAPTER 35 SERVICES????????????????? Deleted
CHAPTER 36 BRANCH CIRCUIT AND FEEDER
REQUIREMENTS.. ........ ?????????????????.Deleted
CHAPTER 37 WIRING METHODS ?????????????Deleted
CHAPTER 38 POWER AND LIGHTING DISTRIBUTION???. Deleted
CHAPTER 39 DEVICES AND LIGHTING FIXTURES????... Deleted
CHAPTER 40 APPLIANCE INSTALLATION . . ???????..Deleted
CHAPTER 41 SWIMMING POOLS ............................................. Deleted

All you need to do is read the National Electrical Code and you will have our Residential Wiring Code.


Now to address your statement about a Code Enforcement Official losing his/her job. There is one thing that I will and have done. I will and have brought formal complaints against the Inspector who tries to force me to do something that can not back up with writing.

 

[iwire]

Dave why are you still here? :lol:

It is obvious you do not think we have anything to offer you. :roll:

I can tell you this as a statement of fact, you are not going to change the minds of myself, Charlie, Roger or Mike.

You seem to have a problem distinguishing the difference between design and code. That is bad for ECs in your jurisdiction the good thing is you are hundreds of miles from my jobs.

BTW, I do quite well with inspectors in my area of course they stick to the code just as I do. 8)

(this weekend I volunteered to wire a new marquee sign for an elementary school PTO. 200' of ditch and I will do a voltage drop calcualtion even though some pople would argue I don't have to :lol: )

See there is that problem again, not being able to separate what is and is not required from what is and is not a good design. :wink:

Have a great weekend, make sure you increase the size of the EGC when you increase the size of the ungrounded conductors of the sign your doing.

 

[benaround]

Dave,

Why do you have a jurisdiction when your not an Electrical Inspector?

Why are you putting on this 'front' ,are you a want to be Inspector?

Is it the same with 'Master Electrician" ?? I passed theM.E. test when I

was 25, all it means is I could open a business and when I did the licence

goes to the name of the business.

So, are you in your own business, or are you patting yourself on the back

just like the 'Inspector' you are. It's kind of like saying that your the

"President", but it's only for a small paper company,not the United States.

Dave, before you go mouthing off to the respected members of this

forum, take a good look in the mirror!! that's my interpetation.

 

[roger]

Colosparker, don't worry, there are no hurt feelings, I was just commenting on my observation of your string of posts.

I will say that I take being compared to Mike a compliment too.

FYI, Don't think that means we have / will always agree or will not debate (sometimes vigorously) issues, this goes for almost all of the members in this thread.

I posted a link to NC's State Building Code on page 7 of this thread and Mike has posted the reason I posted what I did, so it has been there for you to read since then, you must have been in to much of a frenzy to see it. :lol:

Now, Bob has hit the nail on the head, you will not change any of our views and you seem dead set in living with yours so I will (in the words of the Beatles) Let it Be.

One final remark though, I agree with Benaround, and would ask that you go on to other topics so that you can get to know the "Respected Members" here and learn from their offerings.

Roger

 

[peter d]

Dave (Colosparker),

Would you allow a single 30 amp receptacle to be placed on a 15 amp breaker? If not, what code would you cite to disallow it?

 

[lady sparks lover]

I hope I'm still in the trade at your age....it's getting harder to deal with the burocracy

Hey Lady,

Are you insinuating that I am old?

Have a wonderful Weekend!

No, not at all...

I wish I were just 29 like you! :wink: