Max number of recepts per circuit

[roger]

I'm not going to bother with your archived opinions. :shock:


Can I put all of the aforementioned general-use receptacles in the dwelling, hotel, motel guest rooms and guest suites on one circuit?? :lol:

What is the sq ft of these spaces?

Will that change the answer? :wink:

Roger

 

[charlie b]

Colosparker, we in other states have also figured out how to quote more than one person in a single post. :lol:

Yes, I agree! I haven't got the quote thing down yet.

Here's a hint on doing quotes. It is, in fact, what I do. Please don't feel offended I am telling you things you already know. I wrote this for a novice at word processing.

• First hit the "Quote" button.
• Then place your cursor in the text box, hit "Control-A" (to select all the text), and then "Control-C" (to copy the text).
• Now open Microsoft Word, or whatever you use for word processing, and paste the text there.
• The text will begin with a symbol with brackets around the word quote. I can't show you it here, or the Forum will display it as a quotation. There will be a similar symbol with brackets around "/quote" at the end.
• Delete everything between these two symbols, except the text to which you wish to respond. Type your own text after the final "/quote" symbol. Then copy and paste into the Forum's reply box.
• If you wish to reply separately to more than one statement in the other person's quote, then when you paste into Word, paste two copies. From the first copy, edit out all except the first thing to which you wish to respond. Then type your comment after the final "/quote" symbol from the first copy. From the second copy, edit out all except the second thing to which you wish to respond. Then type your reply, and paste into the Forum as above.
• If you wish to reply separately to statements made by more than one other member, the process is similar. First you copy the first person's quote into Word. Then you return to the Forum, hit the browser's "BACK" button, go to the other member's comment, hit the quote button again, and copy that person's comment into Word. That gives you the ability to type a reply to one person, and a reply to a second person, all within a single post of your own.

 

[colosparker]

Mike, Roger

Can I put all of the general-usereceptacles in a dwelling, and in the guest rooms and guest suites of hotels, motels on one general lighting load branch circuit?

Please don't change the wording of the question. I'm sincerely wanting to be educated on your opinion :lol: !


Dave

 

[charlie b]

(J) Dwelling Occupancies. In one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings and in guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, the outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2), and (J)(3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.12. No additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets.
(1) All general-use receptacle outlets of 20-ampere rating or less, including receptacles connected to the circuits in 210.11(C)(3)
(2) The receptacle outlets specified in 210.52(E) and (G)
(3) The lighting outlets specified in 210.70(A) and (B)

Based on the above I would say that it is done at the rate of three watts per square foot not by the number of receptacles or lighting outlets. How say you?

I would say that the thing "that is done" is the calculation of the collective, total load of all branch circuits in the dwelling unit. If you want to design a specific branch circuit, you need to look elsewhere than in Article 220.

 

[charlie b]

Mike, Roger: Can I put all of the general-use receptacles in a dwelling, and in the guest rooms and guest suites of hotels, motels on one general lighting load branch circuit?

Can we first take a moment to make sure we all are using the phrase "general use receptacles" to mean the same thing? I say that because there are several NEC articles that say, essentially, "this circuit is to be installed for such-and-such a purpose, and the circuit shall have no other outlets." Examples include the kitchen's "Small Appliance" receptacle circuits, the kitchen's countertop, island, and peninsula receptacle circuits, the laundry's receptacle circuit, and bathroom receptacle circuits.

Suppose we say that any of these "no other outlets" kinds of receptacles are not to be included in the phrase "general use receptacles." Now we ask your question about whether all the other receptacles, the ones that are "general use receptacles," can go on one circuit. My answer is "yes, but I would not choose to design it that way."

Mike and Roger, I hope you'll forgive my I responding to a question addressed to you. But do you agree with my answer?

 

[dlhoule]

Colosparker, we in other states have also figured out how to quote more than one person in a single post. :lol:

Yes, I agree! I haven't got the quote thing down yet.

Here's a hint on doing quotes. It is, in fact, what I do. Please don't feel offended I am telling you things you already know. I wrote this for a novice at word processing.

• First hit the "Quote" button.
  Then you return to the Forum, hit the browser's "BACK" button, go to the other member's comment, hit the quote button again, and copy that person's comment into Word. That gives you the ability to type a reply to one person, and a reply to a second person, all within a single post of your own.

Thanks for explaining that. I do things differently.

roger wrote

What is the sq ft of these spaces?

Will that change the answer?

jwelectric wrote:
Quote:
(J) Dwelling Occupancies. In one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings and in guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, the outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2), and (J)(3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.12. No additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets.
(1) All general-use receptacle outlets of 20-ampere rating or less, including receptacles connected to the circuits in 210.11(C)(3)
(2) The receptacle outlets specified in 210.52(E) and (G)
(3) The lighting outlets specified in 210.70(A) and (B)

I do not have to go to any other program to do this.

 

[roger]

Charlie, I agree with your answer. I added the sq footage into the scenario just to add a twist to the question.

Per the NEC wording, after I meet the all the requirements of 210 and then move on to 220, I could supply a dwelling with the calculated number of circuits per sq ft area and serve the lighting with all but one circuit, then I could serve all the general use receptacles from this one circuit.

Colosparker, I know Pikes Peak has ammended this to only be a 600 sq ft area.

Charlie, I can't speak for Mike, but I forgive you. :wink: :lol:

Roger

 

[jwelectric]

Charlie, I agree with your answer. I added the sq footage into the scenario just to add a twist to the question.

Per the NEC wording, after I meet the all the requirements of 210 and then move on to 220, I could supply a dwelling with the calculated number of circuits per sq ft area and serve the lighting with all but one circuit, then I could serve all the general use receptacles from this one circuit.

Colosparker, I know Pikes Peak has ammended this to only be a 600 sq ft area.

Charlie, I can't speak for Roger, but I forgive you.

Note: Being that Roger said the same thing I would have said I just copied him. I would also like to say that Mr. B did a good job explaining for us.

 

[colosparker]

Can we first take a moment to make sure we all are using the phrase "general use receptacles" to mean the same thing? I say that because there are several NEC articles that say, essentially, "this circuit is to be installed for such-and-such a purpose, and the circuit shall have no other outlets." Examples include the kitchen's "Small Appliance" receptacle circuits, the kitchen's countertop, island, and peninsula receptacle circuits, the laundry's receptacle circuit, and bathroom receptacle circuits.

Suppose we say that any of these "no other outlets" kinds of receptacles are not to be included in the phrase "general use receptacles." Now we ask your question about whether all the other receptacles, the ones that are "general use receptacles," can go on one circuit. My answer is "yes, but I would not choose to design it that way."

Charlie,

Thank you for that answer. I think you already did answer it that way though. With that in mind, you are saying I can put all of these receptacles as described on one circuit in a dwelling, hotel, motel.

I disagree. That was never the intent of the code, IMO. That is why I feel we have inspector/AHJ's and their legal authority in enforcing the code along with their amendments/statues/requirements/rules/regulations/
interpretations/etc, who also do plan review! How do you arrive at your opinion BTW?

Wheh, I can see from a licensed electrical engineers point of view in having this opinion, yet never actually designing such a thing in a hotel or motel! But the reality is most dwellings are layed out and designed by the licensed electrician doing the wiring. I can honestly say this issue has come up only once or twice on the many of thousands of homes I wired in the late 70's early 80's in the D/FW metroplex. Back then we were not so emboldened to challenge an electrical inspector, who had fifty or more tract houses we wired to inspect in the neighborhood where we called for inspections. I would simply add a homerun and call it good :lol: . Wouldn't dream of taking it to regional electrical board and trying to argue that I can put 10,000 receptacles on such a circuit if I so choose. :lol:! At $65 an hour for my time, it is more economic to simply "lose the spine" :lol: !

Notice how Mike quoted directly from the Pikes Peak Regional Building Code to come to the conclusion that the lighting and the receptacles are limited to the 3VA per 600 square foot area for a 15 amp general lighting load branch circuit in a dwelling. Let's see Mike put all of these receptacles on one circuit and get it to pass inspection in my jurisdiction in a dwelling, hotel, motel that exceeds 600- to infinity and beyond square feet. They probably allow that type of poor wiring in North Carolina, but we here in Colorado are on the 2005 NEC and we all haveTV's/dvd/ computers/blowdryers/ Playstations/stereos/cell phone chargers/etc.IMO :lol: !


Dave

 

[charlie b]

How do you arrive at your opinion BTW?

• (1) From "Charlie's Rule" (do a word search on this forum, if you don't know what that is), and
• (2) From knowing there is a difference between "the minimum required by the code" and "what is the right thing to do for this design."

 

[jim dungar]

Dave,

Why did Pikes Peak create an amendment limiting the area a circuit can supply (although it appears they do not care how many receptacles are on it)?

Was it because the NEC does not do so?

Was it because an AHJ's interpretation needs to be codified?

 

[jwelectric]

Notice how Mike quoted directly from the Pikes Peak Regional Building Code to come to the conclusion that the lighting and the receptacles are limited to the 3VA per 600 square foot area for a 15 amp general lighting load branch circuit in a dwelling.

I didn?t see any restriction on the number of receptacles in that Building Code. Can you point one out?

Let's see Mike put all of these receptacles on one circuit and get it to pass inspection in my jurisdiction in a dwelling, hotel, motel that exceeds 600- to infinity and beyond square feet.

Personally I would never do anything like that but if I did I will make you this promise, it will pass even if it means the code enforcement official lose his/her job as long as I stayed in the requirements of one circuit per 600 square feet.

I should also point out that the Pikes Peak Regional Building Code does not require that one circuit stay in that 600 square foot area just that the total number of circuits not exceeds 3va per 600 square feet.

Using the Pikes Peak Regional Building Code I could wire a house and land every receptacle other than those required by other sections of the code on one circuit and be in compliance.

They probably allow that type of poor wiring in North Carolina,

What is being discussed I will agree would be a poor design but here in North Carolina we try to make sure that our Code Enforcement Officials have the proper training to know that they are to inspect for violations of the code not design issues.

but we here in Colorado are on the 2005 NEC and we all haveTV's/dvd/ computers/blowdryers/ Playstations/stereos/cell phone chargers/etc.IMO :lol: !

We also have some of these items in our homes but I have never known of any of the items being present when a final inspection was being done on a new home. Even on a remodel job it would not be unusual for the Code enforcement Official to walk in a home and see a half dozen electric space heaters sitting all around and in a couple of cases a grow light or two. None of these items have any bearing on the wiring being compliant with the NEC.

 

[jwelectric]

Dave,

Why did Pikes Peak create an amendment limiting the area a circuit can supply (although it appears they do not care how many receptacles are on it)?

Was it because the NEC does not do so?

Was it because an AHJ's interpretation needs to be codified?

This is the same as the NEC it is just worded different.

Example
1800 sq. ft. equals 3- 15 amp circuits. 1800/3 = 600

 

[lady sparks lover]

the infamous question...

 

[dlhoule]

lady sparks lover:

Would you mind explaining to me just what a Building wiring engineer does. Your name hints that you love sparks. I saw sparks yesterday from a xfmr in one of our sub stations. I didn't like it at all. At my age I do not like working more than 8 hr.

BTW I love your signature.
Engineer by trade, Lady by choice
New Jersey Gal

 

[colosparker]

Dave,

Why did Pikes Peak create an amendment limiting the area a circuit can supply (although it appears they do not care how many receptacles are on it)?

Was it because the NEC does not do so?

Was it because an AHJ's interpretation needs to be codified?

Jim,

I wired thousands of homes. That is the way it has always been done in the jurisdictions where I have worked (Texas, Colorado). I think the International Building Code, or for that matter, most State Residential Building Codes address the same thing. If you think about it, it only makes sense. As I have stated numerous times, an AHJ need only make an interpretation of 220.14(J). I think if you pay special attention to the words "are included" in reference to the general-use receptacles, you would come to the conclusion that we keep these receptacles within that square foot area where we do the general lighting load calculation.

25+ years in the electrical trade and I have never seen or heard an electrician or an electrical engineer assume they can wire a structure anyway they want. Any electrician that tells you he can put all of the receptacles in an 1800SqFt dwelling on one circuit and get it to pass inspection is 1. Not subject to any authority having jurisdiction 2. Not an electrician IMO


Dave

 

[colosparker]

Personally I would never do anything like that but if I did I will make you this promise, it will pass even if it means the code enforcement official lose his/her job as long as I stayed in the requirements of one circuit per 600 square feet.

quote]

Mike,

I couldn't access into the North Carolina Residential Building Code. Your state requires the purchase of the code. It looked to be a fairly large book. I am not going to argue with what is allowed in my jurisdiction, because 1. You are not a licensed electrician in Colorado 2. Your opinion on what is and what is not allowed in the jurisdiction where I reside, is just that, an opinion. 3. I have no use for your opinion when comes to discussing how we do things in Colorado.

I want to point out how your post contradicts itself Mike. I also want to point out the fact that I have been through a few of the regional/city codes in your state and I could easily come to the defense of any code enforcement official that you think you could cause "to lose his/her job".
That's a pretty big boast there Mike. Code enforcement officials are there for the benefit of the community, whether they make mistakes or not. If they make a mistake it is usually cleared up with a simple Board review and ruling. Nobody has to lose their job.

That stuff about loads on a general-lighting load branch circuit in a dwelling. You bet they matter. I will listen to an arguement such as was presented by Roger, whereby the homeowner is entitled to have as many receptacles as they want within the general lighting load branch circuit. We wouldn't want the homeowner running extension cords everywhere, that does cause fires! But to put all the receptacles in a dwelling on this circuit , whether it is 1800 Sq. Ft. or 30, 000 Sq. Ft. (The biggest home I ever wired was 28,000 Sq. Ft.) that is another matter entirely. If that were the case, I suppose you (if you say so)could wire a really really big house in North Carolina, looping the 14-2 romex from receptacle to receptacle till you get to the last one. When the homeowner plugs in his 102" Panasonic HDTV in the TV room and sits down to watch some NASCAR, and his daughter turns on her flat iron for her hair and starts to use her blow dryer. I would say the electrician would have a lawsuit over their work. And I would be more than happy to come to the defense of the homeowner with my opinions :lol:

North Carolina is a great state with great people, of which I have no doubt. Anything I wrote about NC was simply in a good natured jesting. I moved to Colorado fromTexas in the 90's and took ribbing about being an electrician from Texas for years. It's all in good fun. No harm intended.
Now that I am a Coloradoan we rib the electricians from California and New York.

If you get a chance could you provide me with a link to your local electrical rules?

Have a great weekend.

Dave

 

[dlhoule]

Hey Dave,

I moved to Colorado fromTexas in the 90's and took ribbing about being an electrician from Texas for years

.

I figure there must be a lot of really good people down there in Texas.

I haven't noticed any of the good ones leaving yet.

Sometimes I just can't help myself. Have a Great Week end!

 

[colosparker]

How do you arrive at your opinion BTW?

• (1) From "Charlie's Rule" (do a word search on this forum, if you don't know what that is), and
• (2) From knowing there is a difference between "the minimum required by the code" and "what is the right thing to do for this design."

Charlie,

I did do some searching. But not on this forum. :lol: Instead I went right to the Seattle Residential Code. I suggest you start a search there, if you know how. You might learn a few things. The first of which is something called "adequate". You are a licensed electrical engineer in good standing since 2000. I suspect you have never wired a dwelling in the Seattle area? My opinion is based on my experience as an electrician, who has wired thousands of homes. This whole notion of putting all the general-use receptacles on one circuit in a dwelling, or in guests rooms in a hotel and motel is purely an opinion. I have wired several large hotels, and don't recall anything remotely close to your argument on a stamped contstruction drawing. keep in mind my opinion is based in reality, and not some hypothetical, as your opinions have suggested in your last few posts.

It's interesting how you, Roger and Mike all say you would never do such a thing. Any electrical inspector/AHJ acting within their authority would never allow the three of you to do such a thing!! You may want to reconsider your opinions of the people, whose job it is to serve and protect the community from shoddy workmanship when it comes to the building/construction of hotels, motels, dwellings, skyscrapers, warehouses, churches, schools, etc. etc. etc. I really think they have more power than some of the people on this forum have led you to believe.

Have a great weekend!

Dave

 

[colosparker]

Charlie, I agree with your answer. I added the sq footage into the scenario just to add a twist to the question.

Per the NEC wording, after I meet the all the requirements of 210 and then move on to 220, I could supply a dwelling with the calculated number of circuits per sq ft area and serve the lighting with all but one circuit, then I could serve all the general use receptacles from this one circuit.

Colosparker, I know Pikes Peak has ammended this to only be a 600 sq ft area.

Charlie, I can't speak for Roger, but I forgive you.

Note: Being that Roger said the same thing I would have said I just copied him. I would also like to say that Mr. B did a good job explaining for us.

You and Roger live in the same state. What is your relationship to one another? It's interesting to me that the two of you literally parrot one another. You even admit it! :lol: What is the point of that? I have 10 licensed electricians in my office. 5 of them are Master Electricians, with 25-30 years experience. Three of them are Journeyman electricians with 10-20 years experience. Two of them are Apprentices. Not one of them agrees with you and Roger (not even the low volt guys who are apprentices). Between the 8 of us we have wired countless thousands of homes in 5 different states, including California, Texas, New York,New Mexico and Florida.

Keep in mind when I agree with your 10,000 receptacle theory. I give up any sense of rational thought. The reality is the average house has x number outlets on any given general lighting load branch circuit. I still say the number is between 15-20 including both the receptacles and the lighting outlets. Inspector/AHJ have always allowed for the few extra receptacles that the homeowner wants or needs or is willing to pay for. In my experience I once had a gunsmith that wanted thirty in his little workshop for general-use. Beyond that it's all imaginary, IMO, much like your argument :lol:

You and Roger have a nice weekend. Any good NASCAR events going on this weekend?

Dave
Master Electrician/wire stripper/ditch digger (this weekend I volunteered to wire a new marquee sign for an elementary school PTO. 200' of ditch and I will do a voltage drop calcualtion even though some pople would argue I don't have to :lol: )

Building a better tommorrow