Max number of recepts per circuit

[jwelectric]

BTW, where is your jurisdiction? Do they let you put all of the receptacles (not including the required ones) on one circuit in a dwelling in your jurisdiction?

Dave

Both Roger and myself live in the Great state of North Carolina. If not the best state in America it will fall somewhere in the top fifty.

Our state adopted the 2005 cycle of the NEC with just two amendents. Now I am not sure if the county in which Roger lives has any other amendments or not but Randolph County one to the best counties of this great state, if not the greatest it is definatly in the top 100 has no amendments other than those of the Great state of North Carolina.

We are allowed but not limited to 10,000 duplex receptacles on one 15 amp circuit in each dwelling unit in our county as long as we stay with-in 600 square feet with the circuit.

Is there some place in this Great country of ours that allows less? :?:

On a side note it feels good to be part of a debate that has reached over 200 post. If there is anything that I can do to help keep this going to the forbidden 1000 post please let me know.

 

[dlhoule]

We are allowed but not limited to 10,000 duplex receptacles on one 15 amp circuit in each dwelling unit in our county as long as we stay with-in 600 square feet with the circuit. Smile

What kind of a deal is that? If you have high enough ceilings, there is room for many more than that. This is not a NEC issue being discussed; it is local rules and regulations.

Now in the Great State of Michigan (which if not the greatest ranks among the top 49; there has to be at least one worse) we have no such restrictions.

Of course we are still on the 02 NEC. I expect we'll go to the 05 some time next spring.

 

[colosparker]

We are allowed but not limited to 10,000 duplex receptacles on one 15 amp circuit in each dwelling unit in our county as long as we stay with-in 600 square feet with the circuit.

That's just what I figured. So what do you people in Michigan do with all those plugs?

 

[colosparker]

Both Roger and myself live in the Great state of North Carolina. If not the best state in America it will fall somewhere in the top fifty.

Where is North Carolina anyways? Didn't know you people even had electricity yet?

 

[colosparker]

If I chose to do so, I would expect the Inspector to do no more than perhaps to groan sadly before he or she signs off the permit.

Interesting. [/quote]

 

[colosparker]

I do that by following the code.

Charlie,

You may want to check Larry in Michigans response, he was more on the mark than you when it comes to understanding the code. At least he understands its limited to the (3VA) area square footage. In his state they allow 10,000 recpeptacles in a 600 sq.ft. area on a 15 amp breaker for a general lighting load branch circuit. I would hate to be the sheetrocker on that job :lol:

Dave

 

[dnem]

On a side note it feels good to be part of a debate that has reached over 200 post. If there is anything that I can do to help keep this going to the forbidden 1000 post please let me know.

And to think that every time it gets bumped to the top, there's my name in the limelight.

I would like to thank the academy for this great honor :roll:

We are allowed but not limited to 10,000 duplex receptacles on one 15 amp circuit in each dwelling unit in our county as long as we stay with-in 600 square feet with the circuit

It's that 10,001st plug that just puts it over the top. :shock:

I put my foot down at 10,001 plugs within 600 sq' !
10,000 plugs are OK, but 10,001 is just not acceptable !
We plain and simply don't allow that kind of overloading in our county of Ohio !

David

 

[jwelectric]

I live in the center of the state just 6 miles from one of the finest Zoos in the nation.

Our great state stands second only to the home state of the President of the United States of America for visits from him.

We are known the nation over as having one of the biggest Electrical Institutes with an average of 850 attendees each spring.

NC is known at each of the Southern Sectional meetings of the IAEI as having more members attend sometimes more than the state that sponsors the meeting.

NC stands a very close second to Cal. for movie and wine making.

NC is the state where NASCAR started and still homes some of the best and oldest drivers on the circuit.

Grantville Community in Randolph County, North Carolina is the home of the most beautiful woman that God ever created, my wife Ms. Kathy, making it the very best spot on this planet of ours as can be seen below.



This is where I live and we even have telephones now.

 

[colosparker]

Here it are the links that you posted. I can clearly see that the Building Official can enforce this code and I also see where I must not have more than 600 square feet on a 15 amp circuit. I also see where it states that I can have but am not limilted to 10,000 duplex receptacles in that same sentence.

Still haven't answered my question, Mike. I never said you couldn't put as many receptacles as you want in the 3VA per square footage area. Several people have already made the point that you can put as many receptacles as "the owner" wants within the 3VA per sq.ft. area. I think they gave an example of a room with 200 receptacles (not quite as ambitous as you). I won't argue that point. :wink:

Check Charlies post, where he says he can put all the receptacles in the whole house on one circuit. Is the electrical engineer right? Can I wire all the receptacles in the dwelling, hotel, motel on one circuit? I don't have to calculate the load for said receptacles, surely I can put them all on the same circuit

How about a new 5000 room hotel in Seattle. If the electrical engineer used 220.14(J), which says we include these receptacles with the general lighting load calculation and "no additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets". Can I wire all of the guest room receptacles on one circuit like the electrical engineer planned it?

BTW, I'm going to check with your AHJ. I still think you may have a problem putting 10,000 receptacles within the 600 sq. ft. Afterall, an inspector can still turn you down for "workmanship", whether you get it all strapped neatly or not :lol: 10,000 receptacles in 600 sq. ft. can't be pretty!

Dave
Master Electrician/ PHD
(Post Hole Digger)

 

[colosparker]

This is where I live and we even have telephones now.

In Colorado we are all using cell phones now

 

[charlie b]

Charlie, You may want to check Larry in Michigans response, he was more on the mark than you when it comes to understanding the code. At least he understands its limited to the (3VA) area square footage.

He may well know more about code than I. I do not claim any high degree of expertise. But I do know the difference between "what the code requires" and "what comprises a good design." It appears that you do not. I also know the difference between a service calculation (article 220) and the requirements for branch circuits (article 210). Do you?

I think that every design that I have ever issued can be accessed as a public record. I don't recall doing anything that was proprietary to a private company. So feel free to research all the work I have performed in the last 30 years. If you come across a design that has what you feel to be an illegally high number of outlets on a branch circuit, please do let me know.

 

[colosparker]

Charlie, You may want to check Larry in Michigans response, he was more on the mark than you when it comes to understanding the code. At least he understands its limited to the (3VA) area square footage.

He may well know more about code than I. I do not claim any high degree of expertise. But I do know the difference between "what the code requires" and "what comprises a good design." It appears that you do not. I also know the difference between a service calculation (article 220) and the requirements for branch circuits (article 210). Do you?

I think that every design that I have ever issued can be accessed as a public record. I don't recall doing anything that was proprietary to a private company. So feel free to research all the work I have performed in the last 30 years. If you come across a design that has what you feel to be an illegally high number of outlets on a branch circuit, please do let me know.

Actually, I have no problem understanding the code. I have done a few service calculations. And I know the requirements for branch circuits. So your answer is, yes!

I'm trying to understand the intent of 220.14(J). That part where it allows you an "unlimited" number of receptacles in a dwelling, hotel, motel. The more questions I ask the more I learn. Now I know it is limited to 10,000 per 600 sq. ft. in Michigan, North Carolina and Medina County Ohio :lol:

There was never an intent to question anything you have done in the past 30 years. My apologies if you feel that way. BTW, when I said Larry has more understanding of the code, I was refering specifically to his understanding of 220.12 and 220.14(J) and dwellingsIMO. I work with six engineers in my building. Two of them electrical. Neither of them have ever wired a dwelling, or for that matter done design or layout of a dwelling. If Larry is a house wiring electrician/contractor, I'm sure he can run circles around most electrical engineers when it comes to roping houses and getting them to pass inspection. And that is NOT meant to be disrespectful of electrical engineers.



Dave

 

[iwire]

Dave do you ever wonder why no one has agreed with you here?

We all make mistakes.

When I post an opinion here on this forum and everyone feels otherwise I find it is a good time to stop, think, read and open my mind to the fact that I may well have been mistaken in my belief even if it is one I have held for many years.

I won't even mention how you have changed your position from a limit of the number of receptacles on a circuit to a limit of the sq ft a circuit can be wired to. :lol:

 

[benaround]

Dave,

I would like to hear your defenition of "workmanship" if you don't mind.

 

[roger]

Colosparker, we in other states have also figured out how to quote more than one person in a single post. :lol:

Now lets look at making a consumer safe.

Customer wants receptacles placed every three feet (Heck, we could say plug mold with devices 6" on center around the room) on all walls of a 600 sq ft living space, this customer wants this for unknown furniture layout, entertainment items, etc..., but there will never be more load than there would be for normal usage in this space, so the electrician supplies the receptacles on the original one circuit for the space.

Along comes hot shot AHJ saying to many receptacles on circuit for his liking, owner will have to pay EC for more circuits.

Owner says he will simply use cheap extension cords to accommodate all the electrical equipment to be on any given wall if necessary, so EC can remove extra receptacles because his budget is gone.

I can see your point of how this would indeed make the consumer safer. :roll:

Roger

 

[iwire]

Dave,

I would like to hear your definition of "workmanship" if you don't mind.

Your a glutton for punishment. :lol:

I can only imagine that Dave is quick to cite the "neat and workmanlike" section of the NEC that even the NFPA admits is vague and possibly unenforceable.

 

[charlie b]

Now I know it is limited to 10,000 per 600 sq. ft. in Michigan, North Carolina and Medina County Ohio :lol:

You misread Mike's statement, I believe:

We are allowed but not limited to 10,000 duplex receptacles . . . .

:wink: :lol:

 

[charlie b]

I'm trying to understand the intent of 220.14(J). That part where it allows you an "unlimited" number of receptacles in a dwelling, hotel, motel.

I've tried to say this before, but I will try one more time, in another way. Article 220.14(J) is within Article 220, "Branch Circuit, Feeder, and Service Calculations." It tells you how to calculate. It does not tell you how to design a branch circuit (or a feeder or a service).

If you want to know the requirements for branch circuits, you need to read 210. You will note when you do that there is nothing in 210 that places a restriction of the load a branch circuit can sustain. The only related requirement is that the rating of the branch circuit must be high enough to handle the calculated load.

Here's one example. Suppose I want to supply 20 receptacles from one circuit. I calculate them at 180 VA each. That's 3600 VA. At 120 volts that equates to 30 amps. If I want to (or if I am required to) limit the load to 80% of the branch circuit rating, that means I need a circuit rated at least as high as 37.5 amps. So I design a 40 amp branch circuit by selecting a 40 amp breaker and #8 wire. Now, please show me the article that forbids that design.

By the way, I know this is a violation, and I know the reason. But the reason does not have to do with the number of receptacles I show as being supplied from the same branch circuit.

 

[scott thompson]

WOW!!!

The thread still lives!!!

16 Pages, 237 Posts - WOW!

Queue the "Energizer Bunny" please!

I feel naughty and am in need of punishment - so I wish to toss the following Gasoline Can onto the Campfire:

Scenario Circuit:

20 Amp 1 Pole "Non-100% Rated" Molded Case Circuit Breaker, connected to a 2 Wire Branch Circuit comprised of two #12 THHN cu Conductors, running in 30? C Ambient environment, and within a Raceway having no more than 3 Current Carrying Conductors.
(System is 120/240V 1? 3 Wire if that makes any difference)

Any objection to me drawing exactly 20 Amperes for exactly 179 Minutes, 10 Seconds on this Circuit, then turning off the load for an hour, then turning it back on again for another 179 Minutes, 10 Seconds, then killing it (repeat procedure for infinity and beyond)?

Let The Flames Begin!!!

Scott35

 

[roger]

I feel naughty and am in need of punishment - so I wish to toss the following Gasoline Can onto the Campfire:

Scott, should that sentence be read with our best Homer Simpson impression? :wink: :lol:

Roger