MC ap issue w/ Engineer

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This designer has also stated that you must pull a #12 solid insulated ground through all conduits and EMT as they have had a problem with compression fitting comming loose and losing the equipment groud...lol...what a world, what a world. I guess splicing countless grounding conductors is a more fool proof way of avoiding this problem:)
 
lineman_16735 said:
The sheath is not the equipment ground though. the #10 Aluminum conductor is. Of course it is in contact with the armor which in my opinion makes it a much better and safer system than typical metal clad. So if EMT is not conduit why is it listed under conduit fill in the code book? No room for tubing fill? What about LT?
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I disagree with your assessment regarding the sheath as an EGC. It actually says that it is right on the wire. Look here:

http://www.southwire.com/Southwire/StaticFiles/Text/MC_AP_new.pdf
 
Hi Rob,

I agree with what your saying but in reality if the #10 Al is gone than the armor is no different than standard MC. This is why I think MCAP is safer than MC. The armor is not a rated EG on MC cable so if someone was to cut into an MC cable into an energized wire and miss the EG then...with MCAP the #10 EG is infact in contact with the armor throughout making the armor part of the EG so cutting the armor and an energized conductor should cause an immediate short. Although in experience it does in MC cable too :) After reviewing the Southwire site. It actually says the armor is an eg path Component.

Chris
 
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kengod said:
Here is the conductors section, I like the spec on scotch locks:confused:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2810801667_021416b65d_b.jpg
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I believe you will lose the conflict on this point...

SECTION 26 05 19 - ELECTRICAL POWER CONDUCTORS AND CABLES
...
5. ALUMINUM CONDUCTORS ARE NOT PERMITTED, EXCEPT AT SERVICE ENTRANCE, WHERE REQUIRED BY LANDLORD. CONDUCTOR CONNECTION SHALL BE PER MANUFACTURER’S REQUIREMENTS. CONTRACTOR SHALL OBTAIN WRITTEN PERMISSION FROM GENERAL CONTRACTOR AND LSD&C’S PROJECT MANAGER WHEN USED.
...
END OF SECTION 26 05 19
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Though aluminum in MC-AP is for grounding purposes, it is still a conductor—the "C" in EGC.
 
According to this guy, its a safety issue with him more then the the he said she said spec's. He pointed out the spec's as a defense for himself, due to the lack of knowledge of the product.
So If his concerns doesn't change, I am hoping to persevere with the fact that MC ap is if nothing else at least as safe as Mc
Ken
 
kengod said:
According to this guy, its a safety issue with him more then the the he said she said spec's. He pointed out the spec's as a defense for himself, due to the lack of knowledge of the product.
So If his concerns doesn't change, I am hoping to persevere with the fact that MC ap is if nothing else at least as safe as Mc
Ken
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Somehow I doubt you will convince him of the safety of aluminum conductors, even though it is for grounding purposes only. There are many trade people that have developed an aversion to aluminum conductors for any purpose... but I wish you the best of luck in your pursuit of the matter :smile:
 
kengod said:
HI All,

I " All conduits, Including flexible metal conduit" and that Mc or MC ap is not in that category. he told me mc is flexible metal conduit, I then replied to him that he was incorrect, Mc is metal clad cable, cable is cable and conduit is conduit, he is comparing a horse to a mule. he said he begs to differ. I told him call any electrical supply house and order FMC and see what they deliver. He will get greenfield not Mc or MC ap.
Ken
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You are correct. This is a cable wiring method.
Isn't the bare aluminum #10 to short out the spirals of the jacket? The jacket is the ground. To illustrate, in health care AC cable, there are two EGCs a insulated green and the cable jacket.

And I would call the local soutwire rep, they have a vested interest in this product, I have heard this argument before on the aluminum not being allowed.
 
kengod said:
The other thing I was wondering is why there is no engineering seal or stamp on the prints. most of the prints we receive need to have an engineering seal or stamp for the building department.
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I would like to hear from Forum Engineers' regarding this oddity, should kengod

persue this avenue or are there situations where a seal/stamp is not required.
 
I did a bank about 10 years ago, and the engineer had similar specs, I tried to get a change for MC cable in a couple of areas just to make things easier and was denied by the engineer, MC was limited to fixture whips an the like, it is his design but I don't see an issue why he would not allow your install, good luck
 
Rockyd said:
EMT - Electrical Metallic Tubing

RMC - Rigid Metal Conduit
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Should'nt make much difference in the specs.

Conduit
3: a pipe, tube, or tile for protecting electric wires or cables
 
RUWired said:
Should'nt make much difference in the specs.

Conduit
3: a pipe, tube, or tile for protecting electric wires or cables
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IMO it makes all the difference in the world.

That definition of conduit you posted above would also include MC, AC and NM cables. The sheath of NM is a 'conduit' by your defintion.

So if the EE specs 'conduit' using the above definition I could run MC or maybe even NM,

If your writing specs that expect the installer to follow the NEC then the specs should be written using NEC terms.
 
iwire said:
That definition of conduit you posted above would also include MC, AC and NM cables. The sheath of NM is a 'conduit' by your defintion.
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In the definition i posted, it says it is to protect cables.
iwire said:
So if the EE specs 'conduit' using the above definition I could run MC or maybe even NM,
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IMO, cable is a manufactured assembly, not a conduit.
[/quote]
 
I had a church to wire and was planning to use MCap befor I started I had my supplier fax Southwires info to the Eng. for his blessing to use. He replied in writing that by the spec. sheets and code references he could see no reason not to use it. He also sent me a letter thanking me for letting him know that this product was on the market. He had never heard of it. But now that he had read the facts he would use it in the specs. where he could. Sounds like this Eng. has ran into something he has no idea about and doesn't want to admit there are still things he can learn. Good luck
 
RUWired said:
In the definition i posted, it says it is to protect cables.

IMO, cable is a manufactured assembly, not a conduit.
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It is a tube to protect wires just as your definition describes.

Conduit
3: a pipe, tube, or tile for protecting electric wires or cables
Click to expand...
 
iwire said:
It is a tube to protect wires just as your definition describes.
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It was a tube untill the manufacturer stuffed it with a bunch of wires. Then it became a cable. IMO the dividing line is how we put it to use.Nonmetallic sheath was a tube untill they put in the conductors, and then it became a cable. Both of which can be put in a tube or conduit.
Rick
 
The spec sheet "raceways and Boxes for electrical systems" sections states the following

Click on this link to view this section, I uploaded it to my flkr account for all to view and read, its easier then typing the entire thing

Tx
Ken

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3128/...9d32b439_b.jpg
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6a seems to permit MC cable in certain applications.
Is the MCap listed as MC cable? Of course the advertisement I saw from Southwire says that it will replace the need for MC and AC, but is it listed as MC? If it is not, then the specs seem to permit MC cable, not the MCap.
 
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