Meters & subpanels over gas. What's done in your area?

B

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
How does your area handle panel upgrades or replacements, in the vicinity of existing gas meters?

I've got four buildings in one complex that all look basically like this:
Federal Pacific Subpanels FPE over gas.jpg
And yes, that's a 4" sewer line, surface mounted so to speak.
In mine area the utility won't allow these subpanels to be replaced in place, nor allow a gutter to stub into the wall wires.

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Background:
The existing breakers are per unit 15 and 20A stab-lock. Units are 1500 square feet each.
14 units plus laundry. Total upstream breaker size 100A stab-lok. Calculated demand 180A per NEC 220.82 for the group of 14.
No reported problems with the electrical, and no history of main breaker trips. No tenant complaints.
But insurance does not like it. And it's never clear if an FPE breaker will trip when needed.

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What would you be allowed to do in your jurisdiction? For those of you in PG&E service territory, what would you do here
other than run away and wash your eyes out carefully?
 
Working space clearances do not appear to be met.
I dont think there is an issue with proximity to gas as long as working space clearances per 110.26 are met.
 
Greentagger said:
Working space clearances do not appear to be met.
I dont think there is an issue with proximity to gas as long as working space clearances per 110.26 are met.
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Some gas companies don't want electric equipment within certain distance of the relief vent on their regulator in case it would happen to need to vent some gas. Doesn't seem to be all that much consistency on what they want though. Some will pipe the vent away from the concerned location some will not.
 
I wonder who was there first on the initial install not that it matters now. To me this is a case of a Utility FU and not the plumber or electrician. Never would fly here on a new install. Don't know about existing.

I would be tempted to run away with 4 buildings like that.

I would suggest a sit down with the inspector and both utilities and a plumber.

I am sure that would take 100 phone calls and 9 months to set up.
 
My utilities used to allow the gas regulator vent top be located near/ under the electric meter, my house was built this way in the ear!y 60sOver the years their standards changed and they required 36" horizontal distance between the vent and meter.

About 15 years ago I came home and found the gas company had install a PVC extension on their regulator vent to move it away from the meter.

Of course this did nothing for the working clearance issue, but no one was complaining about that.
 
Birken Vogt said:
That bank of gas meters could be moved. Although I am sure it would take PG&E months of planning and scads of money to do so.
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That's probably the correct answer, at least for this building... move the mainline and regulator from the left side of the meters to the right, along with shifting the entire assembly rightwards by three-meter equivalents (so the last meter on the right becomes first on the left), and have a plumber pipe across so there's no need to go busting up the siding. As for that surface resting four-incher... is it a gutter drain that could be trenched down a couple inches? That would never fly here for sanitary.
 
Correct, that would not be allowed to be replaced as is in PG&E service territory.

I did a single family home panel replacement the other day, and after originally denying my request to place a 3R PVC box to extend the through-the-wall wiring, they came back and allowed a “sealed junction box” for that situation. Said there was an exception in the GreenBook for existing installs.

Bottom line for your install is, something has to go. Either the gas gets moved, or you go inside and cut the drywall, add junction boxes, and move it all over. Which, based on the probable distance to find a compliant location for the new meters, is going to trigger AFCI requirements.

Along with all new service drops, and all new grounding and bonding, this is not going to be a cheap install.

No $750 panel swap here. 😳😂
 
The general clearances are 12” each side from the edge of the gas meter, extending to a height of 10’, and a 36” radius from the vent.

The 36” side clearance from the riser is usually waived for an existing installation.

No junction boxes, panel, gutter, nothing but a section of conduit, with no couplings, is allowed to cross that section above the gas meter.
 
If it's an overhead electrical service the solution is to move the electrical service. Unfortunately that looks like an underground service. Building owner is very unlikely to be prepared for the price tag or be reasonable about it.

It *might* be worth asking if they'll allow the existing service lateral to be extended to a location where the panels aren't by the gas meters. PG&E'S bureaucracy would usually rather prevent anything from being done about a situation like this than bend the rules a bit to allow a cost-effective solution. But in this kind of situation maybe that argument can be made.
 
Do people use that gate? Turn the gate into a wall and mount the electrical on the outside of it. Just add a 90° to the existing service conduit to pipe through the new wall.
 
jaggedben said:
It *might* be worth asking if they'll allow the existing service lateral to be extended to a location where the panels aren't by the gas meters. PG&E'S bureaucracy would usually rather prevent anything from being done about a situation like this than bend the rules a bit to allow a cost-effective solution. But in this kind of situation maybe that argument can be made.
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I asked that exact question on another job, and it took three months for
the final answer to be "no", "there is no flexibility in the standards".

An electrician advocacy group is working to petition PG&E to alter the rule, to officially allow some flexibility, but don't hold your breath as carbon dioxide poisoning is likely. May 16th meeting with PG&E on that.
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
No junction boxes, panel, gutter, nothing but a section of conduit, with no couplings, is allowed to cross that section above the gas meter.
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The choices then come down to:
  1. Move the gas meters.
  2. Deconstruct the interior of the wall, adding junction boxes on the interior.
    This so no junction box has to be in the prohibited area on the exterior above the gas meters.
  3. Light the buildings on fire.
 
jim dungar said:
About 15 years ago I came home and found the gas company had install a PVC extension on their regulator vent to move it away from the meter.
Of course this did nothing for the working clearance issue, but no one was complaining about that.
Click to expand...
My local utility, PG&E, used to do that. But they no longer allow such regulator snorkels.
 
The choice for many is to ignore the problem. If the gas co and the electrical inspector
didn't write it up, It's most likely OK. As "it must be OK or someone would have said something."
Or Forgtabotit.It will probably stay as is.

There are probably other code violations that are glossed over rather than fight it out.
Most inspectors likely have priories over what they consider hard code violations and lesser ones.
This one seems a bit more obvious.
I wonder how often inspectors are encouraged to "take it easy" because of contractors that are connected.
Not to outright ignore code but to wear dark glasses. This isn't about inspectors but the bureaucracy.
Just a question I wonder about.
 
jim dungar said:
My utilities used to allow the gas regulator vent top be located near/ under the electric meter, my house was built this way in the ear!y 60sOver the years their standards changed and they required 36" horizontal distance between the vent and meter.

About 15 years ago I came home and found the gas company had install a PVC extension on their regulator vent to move it away from the meter.

Of course this did nothing for the working clearance issue, but no one was complaining about that.
Click to expand...
I would think the possibility of condensation freezing and preventing the regulator from functioning.
I've seen it done on burners in boiler rooms with the valve train regulators.
 
DooWop said:
The choice for many is to ignore the problem.
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The insurance inspectors get their own crack at it.
DooWop said:
I would think the possibility of condensation freezing and preventing the regulator from functioning.
I've seen it done on burners in boiler rooms with the valve train regulators.
efb537e1f5079f57104f6a59bdee03c8f5db1e3b.jpg
(Credit Ryan Uecker InterNACHI®️ CPI NACHI20080509 )

No issue with Freezing in Coastal California. We're lucky to get frost.
Click to expand...
 
kwired said:
Some gas companies don't want electric equipment within certain distance of the relief vent on their regulator in case it would happen to need to vent some gas. Doesn't seem to be all that much consistency on what they want though. Some will pipe the vent away from the concerned location some will not.
Click to expand...
But you still have the dedicated equipment space violation. All the POCO near me have Gas meter restriction within the 3ft measurement similar to that shown.
 
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