Milbank line side tap kit

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electrofelon said:
I disagree. The customer owns and is responsible for the meter socket. POCO just puts their meter on it. ( Yes in some areas POCO owns and maintains but I have never encountered).
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I didn't say anything about ownership, I said jurisdiction. That's why POCOs put a tag and/or lock on it, and that's why if there's a clash between the power company and the city as far as what's required inside the meter can, power company wins.

We actually had that happen here whenever Kansas City Power & Light took over Missouri Public Service (MoPub) back around '99 to '00

MoPub required all meter cans to be grounded.
When KCP&L took over, they retained that spec (which they had never had before).But KC, Mo. required all the grounding to be at the panel

KC, Mo. was failing new services because of a ground wire being in the meter can, and we would remove it. Then KCP&L would come and refuse to hook it up because it wasn't grounded.

It ended up becoming a really big deal, and the city lost. To this day we ground every Evergy meter can, which is provided and owned by the customer
 
James L said:
I didn't say anything about ownership, I said jurisdiction. That's why POCOs put a tag and/or lock on it, and that's why if there's a clash between the power company and the city as far as what's required inside the meter can, power company wins.

We actually had that happen here whenever Kansas City Power & Light took over Missouri Public Service (MoPub) back around '99 to '00

MoPub required all meter cans to be grounded.
When KCP&L took over, they retained that spec (which they had never had before).But KC, Mo. required all the grounding to be at the panel

KC, Mo. was failing new services because of a ground wire being in the meter can, and we would remove it. Then KCP&L would come and refuse to hook it up because it wasn't grounded.

It ended up becoming a really big deal, and the city lost. To this day we ground every Evergy meter can, which is provided and owned by the customer
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That doesn't sound like what we are talking about here. Yes POCO can add requirements like a GEC connection. I thought we were talking about meter sockets not having to meet NEC requirements. Besides, I don't agree a meter socket is under POCO "jurisdiction" either. It is the clients property (except the meter itself).
 
As far as the specific product goes, it could certainly be very Handy.
ptonsparky said:
Someone will need to direct me to where it says those are 'line side tap kit.'.
I've only used them on the load side of meters. Line side of Service Disconnect.
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Yeah milbank does not use the term (line side) in the description. I looked because I was going to make a joke about using it on the line side of the meter to get free power and then argue in court that that's what the description said - guess I'll have to find another get out of jail free for stealing power idea 😓
 
electrofelon said:
Yes you are mistaken. The code doesn't actually require very many things to be listed.
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Can you explain what 110.3(C) means then? I read that as products and equipment are to be listed in order to comply with the NEC.

Our jurisdiction is huge on listing, especially UL listing. It feels like UL is almost exclusive.

There were times that we would modify meter main panels by cutting busbar in between the main breaker and the distribution bus to install generator ats'. If we did all of our wiring to code but the UL listing is voided because of the modifications does that violate the code? We stopped doing this.

Also, does landing solar in a switchgear where the bussing has pre-existing holes void the UL listing and is it a violation of the NEC?

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk
 
electro7 said:
Can you explain what 110.3(C) means then? I read that as products and equipment are to be listed in order to comply with the NEC.

Our jurisdiction is huge on listing, especially UL listing. It feels like UL is almost exclusive.

There were times that we would modify meter main panels by cutting busbar in between the main breaker and the distribution bus to install generator ats'. If we did all of our wiring to code but the UL listing is voided because of the modifications does that violate the code? We stopped doing this.

Also, does landing solar in a switchgear where the bussing has pre-existing holes void the UL listing and is it a violation of the NEC?

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk
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There are several places in NEC that says a product (that applies to the section) must be listed. Kind of redundant to do that in several places if 110.3(C) is intended to cover everything.

There also is many things that are listed even though NEC doesn't specifically require them to be. Which leads to a lot of confusion of what is allowed and what is not. We get inspectors telling us we must follow instructions of the listed product and then we plead - but it isn't even required to be listed.
 
electro7 said:
Can you explain what 110.3(C) means then? I read that as products and equipment are to be listed in order to comply with the NEC.
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Not sure I can parse the grammer of the last bit, but it mainly defines what listing means.

There are various sections throughout the code that require specific items or equipment to be listed, some of which have been added since 110.3(C). And those would not be necessary if 110.3(C) requires every item installed by the code to be listed. Clearly some items, such as screws to fasten straps to the wall, do not need to be listed. So I take listing to be required only where the code explicitly requires it.

Our jurisdiction is huge on listing, especially UL listing. It feels like UL is almost exclusive.

There were times that we would modify meter main panels by cutting busbar in between the main breaker and the distribution bus to install generator ats'. If we did all of our wiring to code but the UL listing is voided because of the modifications does that violate the code? We stopped doing this.

Also, does landing solar in a switchgear where the bussing has pre-existing holes void the UL listing and is it a violation of the NEC?

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk
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You are pretty much all talking about 110.3(B) here, not(C). Items like switchgear and panelboards are required to be listed by the articles covering them. An AHJ enforcing that section for these items has no bearing on whether a meter socket is required to be listes.
 
electro7 said:
Can you explain what 110.3(C) means then? I read that as products and equipment are to be listed in order to comply with the NEC.

Our jurisdiction is huge on listing, especially UL listing. It feels like UL is almost exclusive.

There were times that we would modify meter main panels by cutting busbar in between the main breaker and the distribution bus to install generator ats'. If we did all of our wiring to code but the UL listing is voided because of the modifications does that violate the code? We stopped doing this.

Also, does landing solar in a switchgear where the bussing has pre-existing holes void the UL listing and is it a violation of the NEC?

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk
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I see 110.3(C) as just stating if something is listed , it shall be by a recognized agency. See110.2. NEC requires equipment be approved and acceptable to the AHJ. Some jurisdictions adopt listing requirements as an easy way broadly cover what is acceptable and approved. As jaggedben said though there always need to be some exempt things like fasteners and other stuff we end up using and installing.
 
electro7 said:
.

Also, does landing solar in a switchgear where the bussing has pre-existing holes void the UL listing and is it a violation of the NEC?
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Technically, of you are talking about a switch board, the holes would need to be labeled "tap". See this document:


Of course some inspectors may be more lax and allow a lug on any free hole, or even bolting lugs to existing joints.
 
ggunn said:
But the POCO may have a list of approved meter sockets from which to choose.
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There are some that do that. Usually isn't something that conflicts with NEC in any way or with local code enforcement officials if they have amendments. All they have done is evaluate several models and made a list of what they will allow. maybe certain features or options are a part of what is on the list. This keeps them from needing to evaluate every proposed socket and just the model number matching what is on the list means it passes their criteria.
 
kwired said:
There are some that do that. Usually isn't something that conflicts with NEC in any way or with local code enforcement officials if they have amendments. All they have done is evaluate several models and made a list of what they will allow. maybe certain features or options are a part of what is on the list. This keeps them from needing to evaluate every proposed socket and just the model number matching what is on the list means it passes their criteria.
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Yes, of course. Most AHJs I deal with have such a list and if I add a meter to the system it must be from that list.
 
ggunn said:
Yes, of course. Most AHJs I deal with have such a list and if I add a meter to the system it must be from that list.
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That is sort of a courtesy for the AHJ to even look to see if the meter complies with POCO standards IMO, unless they are also inspecting for compliance with POCO regulations. Here inspectors are NEC inspectors, if POCO would have a requirement that goes beyond NEC inspector won't fail it. He may tell you that POCO likely won't approve it though.
 
kwired said:
That is sort of a courtesy for the AHJ to even look to see if the meter complies with POCO standards IMO, unless they are also inspecting for compliance with POCO regulations. Here inspectors are NEC inspectors, if POCO would have a requirement that goes beyond NEC inspector won't fail it. He may tell you that POCO likely won't approve it though.
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That's a moot point, though, isn't it? If it passes the NEC inspection but the POCO won't approve it, it might as well have failed the inspection.
 
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