Missing neutral

[Fmkehoe]

Doing some work on a house and needed to go into the circuit breaker panel.
I see the conduit coming in from outside from the meter pan and I notice there are two, 4/0 cables and that’s it. No neutral.
I go out to the meter and look up and sure enough, there are the two cables and a neutral going into the weather head from the pole, down to the meter, but no neutral from meter to panel. Only a bare copper cable in the circuit breaker panel going thru the wall and onto a ground rod outside.
Am I having a stroke or is there something curious here ?

 

[GoldDigger]

Doing some work on a house and needed to go into the circuit breaker panel.
I see the conduit coming in from outside from the meter pan and I notice there are two, 4/0 cables and that’s it. No neutral.
I go out to the meter and look up and sure enough, there are the two cables and a neutral going into the weather head from the pole, down to the meter, but no neutral from meter to panel. Only a bare copper cable in the circuit breaker panel going thru the wall and onto a ground rod outside.
Am I having a stroke or is there something curious here ?

Possibly the neutral is connected to the mast at the weather head? Upstream of the service disconnect the EGC and the neutral are not separate, and the weather head is a legal point for the neutral to raceway bond.
But although it may work, using the raceway as the one and only neutral conductor is NOT a code approved wiring method!

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[JFletcher]

240v only service? Or perhaps one of the 4/0 is a neutral in the panel? Voltage measurement from each phase to the neutral lug?

 

[Buck Parrish]

Am I having a stroke or is there something curious here ?

I'm going with that. :happyno:

 

[480sparky]

120-volt only service? There's still a few old ones out there.

 

[LarryFine]

An otherwise not-needed neutral should extend to the main-disco enclosure, not end at the meter.

If this were a 120v service, one line conductor would remain unterminated, not the neutral.

 

[GoldDigger]

To add to my previous post, having the ground rod(s) as the only return to the transformer secondary center tap will surely cause very noticeable symptoms if there are 120V loads.
But if there is a metallic path through the mast and weather head to the POCO neutral the voltage drop may not be noticably higher than with a proper neutral all the way to the panel.

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[ptonsparky]

It’s been a few years since I’ve seen it but bare Cu for a neutral was common enough. Never just a conduit return. Not by design anyway.

 

[Fmkehoe]

120-volt only service? There's still a few old ones out there.

242 volts between legs
119 between one leg and ground.
All neutrals and grounds on load side terminate on the same ground/neutral bar where the bare copper attaches.

Ive seen in receptacles where there was no neutral and someone used the ground, but never in a 200 amp panel.

 

[JFletcher]

So the panel and mast are being used as a neutral...:slaphead::thumbsdown:.

Would I be wrong in presuming that the 119 volts to ground on each leg does not add up to 242 volts l-l because of a high resistance neutral pathway?

 

[MAC702]

So the panel and mast are being used as a neutral...:slaphead::thumbsdown:.

Would I be wrong in presuming that the 119 volts to ground on each leg does not add up to 242 volts l-l because of a high resistance neutral pathway?

My exact thoughts.

 

[Adamjamma]

My own thought is the person decided since the neutral and ground are combined in the first panel and since you are allowed to use the metal raceway or conduit as the ground... there was no need for neutral...

 

[Fmkehoe]

So the panel and mast are being used as a neutral...:slaphead::thumbsdown:.

Would I be wrong in presuming that the 119 volts to ground on each leg does not add up to 242 volts l-l because of a high resistance neutral pathway?

Hummm. That got me thinking so I went back ('cause I lazyly left the multimeter on 600vac)
Sure enough, each leg to ground is 121.5 +/-
So technically, things are working as needed, but I'm not comfortable with there being no dedicated neutral. The householder says that that has been that way since 1990.

 

[Adamjamma]

yep... whoever installed it decided neutral and ground was the same thing and left it out, using the raceway as the neutral...

Not correct, but it has worked for thirty years... all because the idiot installer does not know the difference between neutral and ground or thinks they do the same thing in the run from the meter to the panel so are the same thing...

 

[Fmkehoe]

My own thought is the person decided since the neutral and ground are combined in the first panel and since you are allowed to use the metal raceway or conduit as the ground... there was no need for neutral...

Only problem being is that the conduit is pvc.

 

[kwired]

Only problem being is that the conduit is pvc.

Then you are lucky that whatever electrode is connected to the mentioned "ground rod" has a low resistance or there is other low resistance path back to the source somewhere? Could be via a metal water pipe, CATV or telephone cable shield, gas pipe - though gas piping usually intentionally have insulating fittings in them to interrupt such continuity.

 

[ptonsparky]

Only problem being is that the conduit is pvc.

I guess you shouldn’t have felt comfortable!

At at least you should be busy for couple hours tomorrow.

 

[JFletcher]

Then you are lucky that whatever electrode is connected to the mentioned "ground rod" has a low resistance or there is other low resistance path back to the source somewhere? Could be via a metal water pipe, CATV or telephone cable shield, gas pipe - though gas piping usually intentionally have insulating fittings in them to interrupt such continuity.

Cable TV and telephone are only going to carry a few amps before they overheat and melt. a single 12 amp load of a plug-in space heater running all night would probably do it in one day... No way it would last 30 years going through the coax, especially considering that 30 years ago, it was not common for the coax to be bonded to the GES.

 

[ptonsparky]

Cable TV and telephone are only going to carry a few amps before they overheat and melt. a single 12 amp load of a plug-in space heater running all night would probably do it in one day... No way it would last 30 years going through the coax, especially considering that 30 years ago, it was not common for the coax to be bonded to the GES.

I suspect there is an unfound bond someplace and possibly more than one.

OP.
Time to get the meters out and take pictures for us.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Only problem being is that the conduit is pvc.

Time for a service upgrade.