More IG nonsense

[brantmacga]

Here's another one I found a couple of weeks ago.

We were re-lamping troffers in an office. The building is prob 60 years old, and I see these IG receps. Out of curiosity, I opened one up. No bonding to the box at all.

I knew the building had been remodeled maybe 10 years ago, and I figured someone just said they wanted "computer receps".

So the building has an acoustical tile ceiling; I saw the romex here, and then looked above the tiles. The building was remodeled using 100% NM. Nice.


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[gadfly56]

Here's another one I found a couple of weeks ago.

We were re-lamping troffers in an office. The building is prob 60 years old, and I see these IG receps. Out of curiosity, I opened one up. No bonding to the box at all.


I knew the building had been remodeled maybe 10 years ago, and I figured someone just said they wanted "computer receps".

So the building has an acoustical tile ceiling; I saw the romex here, and then looked above the tiles. The building was remodeled using 100% NM. Nice.


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Isn't NM allowed in some commercial spaces?

 

[brantmacga]

More IG nonsense

Isn't NM allowed in some commercial spaces?

Not above acoustical tile ceilings. If it had been a hard ceiling, sure.

The issue I was pointing out here though was the single grounding conductor coming into a metallic box with an IG recep.


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[GoldDigger]

One ground is isolated from the other grounds and the other is isolated from everything.

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[dkidd]

I once worked for a department in state government. The maintenance workers used the orange receptacles because they were higher quality than the cheap state contract standard receptacles. hmy:

 

[mbrooke]

Whats wrong with NM? Food for thought: there are commercial buildings in MA full of it.

 

[jap]

Here's another one I found a couple of weeks ago.

We were re-lamping troffers in an office. The building is prob 60 years old, and I see these IG receps. Out of curiosity, I opened one up. No bonding to the box at all.

I knew the building had been remodeled maybe 10 years ago, and I figured someone just said they wanted "computer receps".

So the building has an acoustical tile ceiling; I saw the romex here, and then looked above the tiles. The building was remodeled using 100% NM. Nice.


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While your pulling receptacles out on your relamping project, push that receptacle back into the metal box and then take your screwdriver and jam it in between hot side of the receptacle and the inside of the metal box and let us know if it's not actually bonded at all.

JAP>

 

[jap]

If that's actually 12/2 "w/ground" and the EGC actually it makes it all the way back to the service point that it.

JAP>

 

[Smart $]

If that's actually 12/2 "w/ground" and the EGC actually it makes it all the way back to the service point that it.

JAP>

???

Is an isolated ground circuit?

BTW, the box can be bonded to the box here if a wood frame building and it would still technically be an isolated ground circuit.

Note it is not required that an isolated ground be isolated from regular EGC's all the way back to the service. That is another misconception about IG grounding.

 

[Andy Delle]

Beyond the silliness of the application, I see another code violation there.

As the yoke of the IG receptacle is not bonded, that bare ground wire needs to be bonded to the metal box. The idea that it probably touches the metal box anyway is not good enough?

This is the same thing I brought up in another thread. Putting IG receptacles in residential with ROMEX and wood studs. In residential wood construction using Romex, any dedicated circuit is inherently isolated ground in the first place. Now if one wants to spend $15 or so for an IG receptacle, I guess that's OK provided the box is plastic or metal with the ground bonded.

 

[Smart $]

Beyond the silliness of the application, I see another code violation there.

As the yoke of the IG receptacle is not bonded, that bare ground wire needs to be bonded to the metal box. The idea that it probably touches the metal box anyway is not good enough?

This is the same thing I brought up in another thread. Putting IG receptacles in residential with ROMEX and wood studs. In residential wood construction using Romex, any dedicated circuit is inherently isolated ground in the first place. Now if one wants to spend $15 or so for an IG receptacle, I guess that's OK provided the box is plastic or metal with the ground bonded.

It does not have to be a dedicated circuit.

 

[jap]

???

Is an isolated ground circuit?

BTW, the box can be bonded to the box here if a wood frame building and it would still technically be an isolated ground circuit.

Note it is not required that an isolated ground be isolated from regular EGC's all the way back to the service. That is another misconception about IG grounding.

No misconception here, I was just joking that it would be impressive if one could push that back into the box without the bare ground contacting the metal box somewhere. Not that that is proper bonding of the box by any means, only that it would create a path.

Other than that I only mention the 12/2 "with ground" because in the picture you really cant tell if the bare ground is actually in the NM or not and that if it was it'd have to make it back to the service somehow to be able to throw sparks from the screwdriver test.

JAP>

 

[jap]

???

Is an isolated ground circuit?

BTW, the box can be bonded to the box here if a wood frame building and it would still technically be an isolated ground circuit.

Note it is not required that an isolated ground be isolated from regular EGC's all the way back to the service. That is another misconception about IG grounding.

What do you mean by the box can be bonded to the box?

JAP>

 

[jumper]

I knew the building had been remodeled maybe 10 years ago, ......

So the building has an acoustical tile ceiling; I saw the romex here, and then looked above the tiles. The building was remodeled using 100% NM. Nice.

Under the 1999 and maybe 2002, not sure which year it changed, NM was allowed above drop ceilings in commercial.

NM is also allowed in many commercial applications then and still now.

 

[Smart $]

What do you mean by the box can be bonded to the box?

JAP>

Where a box is affixed to a wood stud framing and isolated from any grounded noncurrent-carrying metal parts, the isolated ground conductor is 'permitted' to be bonded to the box to establish an effective ground. The circuit grounding is still considered isolated ground.

It is the same as using raceway as the EGC and inserting a nonmetallic fitting at an equipment enclosure and using the I-EGC to bond the equipment (which is otherwise isolated from grounded noncurrent-carrying metal parts). It is an acceptable method of running isolated ground circuits where the utilization equipment isn't designed for an isolated ground.

 

[jap]

Where a box is affixed to a wood stud framing and isolated from any grounded noncurrent-carrying metal parts, the isolated ground conductor is 'permitted' to be bonded to the box to establish an effective ground. The circuit grounding is still considered isolated ground.

It is the same as using raceway as the EGC and inserting a nonmetallic fitting at an equipment enclosure and using the I-EGC to bond the equipment (which is otherwise isolated from grounded noncurrent-carrying metal parts). It is an acceptable method of running isolated ground circuits where the utilization equipment isn't designed for an isolated ground.

In that case the isolated ground conductor would be permitted to be bonded to the box to establish an effective ground.

I don't see any way that a "box being bonding to a box" could ever serve that purpose.

JAP>

 

[Unbridled]

???

Is an isolated ground circuit?

BTW, the box can be bonded to the box here if a wood frame building and it would still technically be an isolated ground circuit.

Note it is not required that an isolated ground be isolated from regular EGC's all the way back to the service. That is another misconception about IG grounding.

IMO, IG circuits are so misconceived. I even remember back in the 70's, seeing electricians actually changing EMT over to PVC at the Panel thinking they were "isolating" the ground!!
I've seen electricians pull in 2 - green wires, 1 for EGC and 1 for IG!!
After all, most of us already pull in an isolated ground in conduit calling it an EGC. When used properly, this EGC can easily be used as a IG conductor.
Thoughts?

 

[jap]

???

Is an isolated ground circuit?

BTW, the box can be bonded to the box here if a wood frame building and it would still technically be an isolated ground circuit.

Note it is not required that an isolated ground be isolated from regular EGC's all the way back to the service. That is another misconception about IG grounding.

???

 

[Andy Delle]

It does not have to be a dedicated circuit.

Well perhaps by code but stringing isolated grounds can introduce ground loops if the gear plugged in is interconnected by other grounds such as communications cables. The principle of an isolated ground circuit is that all electrical grounds tie at a common low impedance point back at the panel thus avoiding electronic signal current loops.

 

[jap]

IMO, IG circuits are so misconceived. I even remember back in the 70's, seeing electricians actually changing EMT over to PVC at the Panel thinking they were "isolating" the ground!!
I've seen electricians pull in 2 - green wires, 1 for EGC and 1 for IG!!
After all, most of us already pull in an isolated ground in conduit calling it an EGC. When used properly, this EGC can easily be used as a IG conductor.
Thoughts?

Easily misunderstood if you don't know any better.

If you browse through the thousands of post on grounding on this site alone, by some pretty salty electricians, you'll see that Isolated Grounding is not the only part of grounding that's severely misunderstood.

JAP>