Motor Protection with Magnetic Only Breaker

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ibarrola

Member
Location
Houston
Hi,

Been trying to read up/learn on NEC08 and got stuck with a doubt.

I have a 220V 15HP 3P Motor SF1.15 FLA 48 and is tripping the magnetic breaker (3P 60A Type QP, 10,000SC) when the HPU starts at full load (when HPU is turns on at a set pressure, not from 0PSI). The motor is being fed by this 3P 60A breaker which is connected to a motor contactor and overload (setting 75A, ABB TF96 75A-87A) with a 6AWG 3/C cable... It is being fed 208V

1) The conductor has to be higher then 125% of the motors FLC, correct?

2) Max overload for SF1.15 or greater is 125% (exception of max 140% if motor can't be started), correct?

3) Vendor seems to have set overload too high? Or selected a larger overload device...

4) Breaker, according to 430.52, an instanteneous trip can be selected at a max of 1100% (if nema B motor)... So if the breaker selected is higher than the conductor size ampacity, then what will protect the conductor? Doesn't the breaker trip value need to be lower than the conductors ampacity?

5) Is having a magnetic only breaker and an overload approved by NEC?


Thanks,
Yogi
 

ibarrola

Member
Location
Houston
5) Is having a magnetic only breaker and an overload approved by NEC?

Well, it looks like it's a thermal*magnetic 3P breaker...

3-pole, 60 Amp, 240V type QP circuit breaker
10,000 AIC interrupting rating
Siemens type QP circuit breakers provide easy plug-in connections in Siemens enclosures and the time saving insta-wire feature
Compatible with Siemens PL and ES series load centers
Use for overload and short-circuit protection of your electrical system
Thermal-magnetic
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Hi,

Been trying to read up/learn on NEC08 and got stuck with a doubt.

I have a 220V 15HP 3P Motor SF1.15 FLA 48 and is tripping the magnetic breaker (3P 60A Type QP, 10,000SC) when the HPU starts at full load (when HPU is turns on at a set pressure, not from 0PSI). The motor is being fed by this 3P 60A breaker which is connected to a motor contactor and overload (setting 75A, ABB TF96 75A-87A) with a 6AWG 3/C cable... It is being fed 208V

1) The conductor has to be higher then 125% of the motors FLC, correct?

2) Max overload for SF1.15 or greater is 125% (exception of max 140% if motor can't be started), correct?

3) Vendor seems to have set overload too high? Or selected a larger overload device...

4) Breaker, according to 430.52, an instanteneous trip can be selected at a max of 1100% (if nema B motor)... So if the breaker selected is higher than the conductor size ampacity, then what will protect the conductor? Doesn't the breaker trip value need to be lower than the conductors ampacity?

5) Is having a magnetic only breaker and an overload approved by NEC?


Thanks,
Yogi

1. yes. But the FLC value has to come from the tables in the code and not the nameplate.

2. Yes, but since the overload is not tripping, I would not be messing with this setting.

3. That will not cause the breaker to trip.

4. the breaker is there just for short circuit protection. The overloads prevent an overload.

5. If it is listed as such.
 

ibarrola

Member
Location
Houston
4. the breaker is there just for short circuit protection. The overloads prevent an overload.

Thanks for your quick reply Bob...
Seeing as this is a thermal-magnetic breaker then I would be using the max 250% for inverse time breaker from table 430.52... But how would I know what breaker to use (below the max 250%) when the motors FLC is 46.2A (NEC table)?

Thanks,

Yogi
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Is this for use in a coal mine?
using an instant cb with external ol is common
NEC does not apply in a mine
although MSHA uses the 68 NEC for guidance
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Hi,

Been trying to read up/learn on NEC08 and got stuck with a doubt.

I have a 220V 15HP 3P Motor SF1.15 FLA 48 and is tripping the magnetic breaker (3P 60A Type QP, 10,000SC) when the HPU starts at full load (when HPU is turns on at a set pressure, not from 0PSI). The motor is being fed by this 3P 60A breaker which is connected to a motor contactor and overload (setting 75A, ABB TF96 75A-87A) with a 6AWG 3/C cable... It is being fed 208V

1) The conductor has to be higher then 125% of the motors FLC, correct?

2) Max overload for SF1.15 or greater is 125% (exception of max 140% if motor can't be started), correct?

3) Vendor seems to have set overload too high? Or selected a larger overload device...

4) Breaker, according to 430.52, an instanteneous trip can be selected at a max of 1100% (if nema B motor)... So if the breaker selected is higher than the conductor size ampacity, then what will protect the conductor? Doesn't the breaker trip value need to be lower than the conductors ampacity?

5) Is having a magnetic only breaker and an overload approved by NEC?


Thanks,
Yogi
Interedting, Motor "protection"" with mag only breaker? Or, should it be a mag only "motor circuit protector" or MCP.
The over load relay is set to protect the motor from overload while the MCP protects the motor circuit should there be a winding failure in the motor. I have always advised those to set the mag setting per art 430-52 max or as low as you can just above where the MCP may nuisance trip when the motor is started.
Remember that the MCP is a motor "Circuit protector" which protects the motor circuit from the motor through the OLR and contactor to the MCP in the event of a motor winding failure. Motor winding failure commonly occur from phase to ground . The goals is to limit motor damage by taking the motor off line ASAP before significant damage is done before the failure escalates to a phase to phase fault. Westinghouse originally designed the MCP to help reduce fires as a result of a motor failure providing superior protection over fuses. Art 430:-52 I believe refer to it he MCP as ground fault protection.
 

ibarrola

Member
Location
Houston
Interedting, Motor "protection"" with mag only breaker? Or, should it be a mag only "motor circuit protector" or MCP.
The over load relay is set to protect the motor from overload while the MCP protects the motor circuit should there be a winding failure in the motor. I have always advised those to set the mag setting per art 430-52 max or as low as you can just above where the MCP may nuisance trip when the motor is started.
Remember that the MCP is a motor "Circuit protector" which protects the motor circuit from the motor through the OLR and contactor to the MCP in the event of a motor winding failure. Motor winding failure commonly occur from phase to ground . The goals is to limit motor damage by taking the motor off line ASAP before significant damage is done before the failure escalates to a phase to phase fault. Westinghouse originally designed the MCP to help reduce fires as a result of a motor failure providing superior protection over fuses. Art 430:-52 I believe refer to it he MCP as ground fault protection.

Thank Templdl,

The breaker feeding the motor is a 3P 60A (10,000SC) from here it connects to a skid with a 6AWG 3/C cable. the skid had a motor contactor and an overload set at 75A. My doubt is, the motor's inrush (when in full load, due to the pressure of the HPU) trips the 60A breaker. Per NEC 430.52, I can change the breaker to 250% of my motor's FLC, in order to hopefully cover that inrush. But this would mean selecting a breaker above the rating of our 6AWG cable. I thought a breaker should protect the cable, are there any exceptions to this?

Thanks,
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Non, this is a warehouse feeding a HPU...
HPU = heat pump unit?

If so, is this a fully integrated unit with nameplate (e.g. a listed unit), or is it made up of separate components. If the former, does the nameplate have minimum circuit ampacity and/or maximum overcurrent protection device ratings? If yes, what are those specifications?
 

ibarrola

Member
Location
Houston
HPU = heat pump unit?

If so, is this a fully integrated unit with nameplate (e.g. a listed unit), or is it made up of separate components. If the former, does the nameplate have minimum circuit ampacity and/or maximum overcurrent protection device ratings? If yes, what are those specifications?

Sorry for the acronym, Hydraulic Power Unit... It has one 15HP motor and it reaches 3000PSI, when pressure reduces to 2700PSI, the motor starts and that's when it trips. So they have to manually relieve the pressure to let's say 2000PSI and then start the motor in order to get to 3000PSI.

The nameplate would be at the motor... HP 20//15...Volts 230/460//190/380... Amps 48/24//44/22...SF 1.15, NEMA B

Thanks Smart$
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Sorry for the acronym, Hydraulic Power Unit... It has one 15HP motor and it reaches 3000PSI, when pressure reduces to 2700PSI, the motor starts and that's when it trips. So they have to manually relieve the pressure to let's say 2000PSI and then start the motor in order to get to 3000PSI.

The nameplate would be at the motor... HP 20//15...Volts 230/460//190/380... Amps 48/24//44/22...SF 1.15, NEMA B

Thanks Smart$
That's a 20HP motor. The 15HP rating is likely at 50Hz.

Table FLA is 54A. Using a 60A breaker is just asking for nuisance trips.

Powering a 240V rated motor with 208V isn't helping.

Is this a new installation or existing? If the latter, how long had it not had problems?
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Thank Templdl,

The breaker feeding the motor is a 3P 60A (10,000SC) from here it connects to a skid with a 6AWG 3/C cable. the skid had a motor contactor and an overload set at 75A. My doubt is, the motor's inrush (when in full load, due to the pressure of the HPU) trips the 60A breaker. Per NEC 430.52, I can change the breaker to 250% of my motor's FLC, in order to hopefully cover that inrush. But this would mean selecting a breaker above the rating of our 6AWG cable. I thought a breaker should protect the cable, are there any exceptions to this?

Thanks,
Is the 60a breaker a TM breaker? MCPs are marker with their cantinuous max current which may misinterpreted as that of the common breaker. It seems as though that 60a breaker is providing overcurrent protection for the cable feeding the starter and I would guess it may be tripping on overload. As also an indicator is that MCPs are not rated nor marked with an interrupting rating.
I would strongly suspect you breaker is tripping themally due to a prolonged locker rotor current (LRA) which commonly is about 7x the motor's FLA. The inrush is often an instantaneous current of 11-13x which we would affect the instantaneous trip of the breaker. If you breaker is 60a TM breaker expect the magnetic/instantaneous trip setting as usually 10x the rating of the breaker +-20%, usually +20%. As Susan tale your motor's FLA x 11 with a max of 13 which would give you a good idea of what your inrush would be. If that is an issue your 60a breaker would trip at the instant that you energize the motor with no delay.
What do you this?
Remember, is that 60 bresker a TM breaker see used to provide lcable overload protection? If so you may want to revisit that coordination between the.cable and the 60a breaker. If you increase the size of the breaker will you loose the overload protection that it is providing for the cable? Are there any acception that would allow for you to increase the size of the breaker? The question is why is the breaker there and what protection is it there for?
 

ibarrola

Member
Location
Houston
That's a 20HP motor. The 15HP rating is likely at 50Hz.

Table FLA is 54A. Using a 60A breaker is just asking for nuisance trips.

Powering a 240V rated motor with 208V isn't helping.

Is this a new installation or existing? If the latter, how long had it not had problems?

This is a new installation and vendor information had mentioned 15HP motor, I just got the more details information when I asked for pictures, plus when installed, they where supposed to provide 240V but instead installed a 208V feed. Installation was done before unit got in...
Now, the name plate does say 230V which you still have a +/- 10% if I'm not mistaken, so 208V should be the minimum voltage allowed (230V-23V (10%)).
 

ibarrola

Member
Location
Houston
Is the 60a breaker a TM breaker? MCPs are marker with their cantinuous max current which may misinterpreted as that of the common breaker. It seems as though that 60a breaker is providing overcurrent protection for the cable feeding the starter and I would guess it may be tripping on overload. As also an indicator is that MCPs are not rated nor marked with an interrupting rating.
I would strongly suspect you breaker is tripping themally due to a prolonged locker rotor current (LRA) which commonly is about 7x the motor's FLA. The inrush is often an instantaneous current of 11-13x which we would affect the instantaneous trip of the breaker. If you breaker is 60a TM breaker expect the magnetic/instantaneous trip setting as usually 10x the rating of the breaker +-20%, usually +20%. As Susan tale your motor's FLA x 11 with a max of 13 which would give you a good idea of what your inrush would be. If that is an issue your 60a breaker would trip at the instant that you energize the motor with no delay.
What do you this?
Remember, is that 60 bresker a TM breaker see used to provide lcable overload protection? If so you may want to revisit that coordination between the.cable and the 60a breaker. If you increase the size of the breaker will you loose the overload protection that it is providing for the cable? Are there any acception that would allow for you to increase the size of the breaker? The question is why is the breaker there and what protection is it there for?

Templdl,

It is a non adjustable 60A 3P Siemens Type QP breaker on a panel, specs say its a thermal magnetic bkr. Looks like breakers that we install on house panels.

To me the overload protects the motor from exactly that, and the breaker is there for any short circuit, but I always thought that the cable's ampacity would need to be higher then the breakers trip rating.
Between the overload and the breaker, there is a run of 3/C 6AWG.

Cable sized per 125% of FLC (knowing now that we have a 20HP at 208V which FLC = 59.4A) so 1.25 x 59.4A = 74.25A minimum and we have our #6 rated at 75A (90C), so we are good with that.
Overload max of 125% of FLC (for SF 1.15) so 1.25 x 59.4 = 74.25A, overload is set to 75A.
Breaker selected was 60A non-adjustable trip... Now knowing the above, I can select a max of 250% of FLC (2.5 x 59.4A = 148.5A) which the next standard size of 148.5 would be a 150A breaker.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
This is a new installation and vendor information had mentioned 15HP motor, I just got the more details information when I asked for pictures, plus when installed, they where supposed to provide 240V but instead installed a 208V feed. Installation was done before unit got in...
Now, the name plate does say 230V which you still have a +/- 10% if I'm not mistaken, so 208V should be the minimum voltage allowed (230V-23V (10%)).
A motor rated 230V is for use on a nominal 240V system... but for the most part the motor itself is rated 230V nominal at its terminals. The question is whether you are getting 208V at the motor terminals, especially at start up.

Also, while the motor may run at 208V, the current (FLC) will be higher than the nameplate value. HP is maintained, so VA remains approximately the same as 230V x 48A (nameplate). At 208V, that's 53A.

Being a new installation, I'd recommend going with a higher rated breaker. Verify the motor is getting at least close to 208V while running under load, and perhaps check the sag on startup.
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
I'm an electrohydraulics guy and have several observations. It is not unusual in our industry to overload a motor by 50% (or more) for short times, like a few seconds, on a periodic basis, with RMS load below motor rating, usually not exceeding 80%. BUT, startup is "never" in an overloaded condition. I suspect, at the least, an operation issue. I've not commissioned a system fed with 6/3 cord; cord conductor marking includes the ECG if present unlike NM ... so with 6/3 cord there is no ECG. I'm not an electrician, but do not like that and wouldn't allow it on one of my jobs.

If you have the schematic in pdf and would like an independent review, PM me for an email address (forum rules don't allow it to be posted) and I'll look at it for possible operation issues ... in particular, we don't USUALLY like to start at full pressure. Unloading the compensator is common. If there is a lot of fluid under compression (long hoses, an accumulator, etc) flow and pressure may simultaneously before the flow reduces to "zero".
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
... I've not commissioned a system fed with 6/3 cord; cord conductor marking includes the ECG if present unlike NM ... so with 6/3 cord there is no ECG. I'm not an electrician, but do not like that and wouldn't allow it on one of my jobs.

...
He said cable, which can be w/G.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Although your question has been answered, it appears maybe you didn't catch it, so I'll reiterate it and try to clear up some other issues for you.

Yes, it is permissible to "over size" a breaker on a MOTOR branch circuit, IF you have an Over Load Relay in the circuit as well.

In a factory built "combination starter", that will often mean the circuit breaker will be a "mag-only" type, commonly called an "MCP", but technically, that was a trade name for a long time so most other mfrs used other terms. Officially in the NEC it is referred to as an "Instantaneous Trip" (IT) circuit breaker. BUT, you cannot use those in the field, they are ONLY allowed to be used in a factory built and UL listed combination starter as part of a specific series string with the other components. So in your skid, if they built it themselves (which from the fact that they used a residential plug-on breaker is a 100% certainty), they would NOT have been able to use an MCP. That explains the Thermal-Mag breaker. I happen to think that is an EXTREMELY poor choice of breaker, read on.

The Siemens QP is a residential breaker, NOT really intended for industrial use and absolutely not suited for what they are using it for. Residential breakers are built and tested to somewhat "loose" tolerances for instantaneous trip values. If you were to find (and it's not easy) a "Time Current Curve" (TCC) for that breaker, it would indicate that the magnetic trip is designed for 10x the breaker rating, so in this case 600A. In reality, that breaker will not EXCEED 10x the rating, but is acceptable to be sold even if it trips at 4x the rating, so 240A. That's a much wider tolerance than anyone would accept for an industrial duty product, where nuisance tripping can have very substantial consequences in lost production and therefore revenue. In a residence, the chances of starting a large motor like that are almost nil and the consequence is just an angry homeowner who maybe has to go find the flashlight.

You are allowed to go to 250% of the motor table FLA of 59.4A for a 208V system, so the breaker can be as high as 150A if necessary (next size up). If you decide to change it to make this problem go away, I suggest finding a thermal-mag breaker with a 150A frame, that has an ADJUSTABLE magnetic trip dial on it, just like on the MCPs (it would be the exact same trip unit). The mag trip unit will go up to 1500A that way. I would set it for 700A at first, see if that holds. This is roughly the limit of what the NEC allows (1300%), but there is an exception IF you can show that this does NOT hold in; if not, then you are allowed to go to 1700%, so roughly 1000A. I would not go there first however. Start off with as low as will hold in. Since 1000A is going to be the upper limit for you anyway, you could go with a 100A T-M breaker, it's mag trip will go to 1000A and it will be a little less expensive.

I also think your OL relay is too high. With a nameplate FLA of 48A at 230V you MIGHT be able to get away with using 53A (more later). MANY OL relays will have ALREADY factored in the "pick-up point" allowable per the NEC of 125%, so you do NOT add another 25% on top of that value, you set it / select it for the ACTUAL value. But at 75A, you are even above THAT value! Most likely they were using the 140% allowance for a 1.15SF rated motor and used the NEC tables for it at 230V, meaning 54A. 54A x 1.4 = 75.6A, that makes sense to that setting. But, that is not what you HAVE. You have a 1.15SF motor rated at 48A, so the absolute maximum it can be set is 67.2A.

Now lets get into the voltage rating. At 10HP and below, there is a general (but not official) understanding among motor mfrs that these smaller motors can easily tolerate being run at 208V as long as there is not too much voltage drop. But at 20HP, all bets are off. So unless you contact the motor mfr and ask them SPECIFICALLY if it is safe to run this motor on a 208V system, you cannot assume that. Yes, 208V is within the -10% of 230V, but if the 208V drops to 197.6V as the utility is allowed to do (-5%), now the motor terminal voltage is not within tolerance and you could lose the motor. That said, that's one of the "fudge factors" behind using a motor with a Service Factor of 1.15; it allows for some unexpected voltage drop and the current increase that entails. So the point is, even if you want to chance it by running it at 208V, you MUST get the OL relay set at a lower value to protect that motor. Personally, I would set it below 67.2A, likely at around 60A, but that's just me.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
...

You are allowed to go to 250% of the motor table FLA of 59.4A for a 208V system...
He's technically installing it as a 230V motor, as the motor is rated for 208V. Would not the 230V value (54A) be the required value to use for rating determination?
 
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