My Current Gripe

[jumper]

Very few houses here don't have fule fired appliances. New energy code doens't allow electric heat so. Even our "all electric" houses had FAU's installed.

Got it. Thanks.

 

[jumper]

Your 2nd line shows your concern, or lack of, for someone's safety & benefit. You proved my point that Big Brother would rather a person stay at a safety level of 1 or 2 if he can't afford to get to level 10. I could get him to a level 4 or 5 and he would be much better off than he is. But you really don't care about him as much as your rule book. If I could follow you around day to day, I'm sure I would hear you exhort plenty about safety. Go polish your horn.

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[roger]

Your 2nd line shows your concern, or lack of, for someone's safety & benefit. You proved my point that Big Brother would rather a person stay at a safety level of 1 or 2 if he can't afford to get to level 10. I could get him to a level 4 or 5 and he would be much better off than he is. But you really don't care about him as much as your rule book. If I could follow you around day to day, I'm sure I would hear you exhort plenty about safety. Go polish your horn.

OK, time to get down off of your high horse. The code is what it is, if you don't like it get involved and try to change it, in the mean time if you want this person to have a Cadilac in place of a safe working Kia, then furnish it to him on your nickle, otherwise do the best you can and sleep well knowing you did what you did or didn't do.

Roger

 

[renosteinke]

I think jmellc raises a good point: forcing someone to go 'all or nothing' ... meet current code or make no improvements at all .... does sound like we're letting the 'best' become the enemy of 'better.'

Let me illustrate the point, using a previous residence of mine:

Half of a duplex, this <400 sq. ft. home was served by 3-15 amp 120 circuits, a 30A, 240 circuit. Bedroom, living room, bathroom, and a standing kitchen. Pretty basic. It was wired with the first roll of Romex to come off the assembly line, before WW2. Water bond, but no ground rod. No ground wires for the circuits, 30A service (water heater had separate service), Edison-base fuses. The 120 circuits fed two combined lights/ receptacle circuits and a separate circuit for an electric space heater in the bathroom wall.

The kitchen had a single receptacle and a switch for the fan. That's ONE receptacle, not a duplex. The bath had it's only receptacle in the base of the light over the sink. The sink was flanked by the water heater, and an 18" drainboard.

I was pretty comfy living there. Yet, I defy you to wire this place to 'current' code without exceeding 12 circuits. Somehow, the idea of serving that 18" drainboard with two 20A SABC's seems a bit excessive. (Do we want to count the top of the water heater as 'counter space?') Heaven alone knows where you'd place the laundry receptacle; the 1-1/2" drain line is too small for a washer, according to the plumbing code. Have fun adding outside receptacles through the brittle-as-glass asbestos-cement siding (want to try replacing a shattered piece?). GFCI receptacles? Hope you like Wiremold, as they won't fit in the old steel boxes. Energy codes? Add that second light and you're over the square-footage based 'maximum.'

Even if the place were a complete-gut & rewire, there's quite a few current code requirements that just don't fit very well. Too bad, I should shut up and just comply? Ahem. Maybe, just possibly, the 'one size fits all' code approach doesn't really fit all? You bet it's frustrating. Small wonder so much work is done without permits, by either the occupant or some trunk-slammer.

It's a good rant, and brings up some legitimate issues.

 

[jmellc]

OK, time to get down off of your high horse. The code is what it is, if you don't like it get involved and try to change it, in the mean time if you want this person to have a Cadilac in place of a safe working Kia, then furnish it to him on your nickle, otherwise do the best you can and sleep well knowing you did what you did or didn't do.

Roger

I am not on a high horse, I am pointing out a situation and being assaulted by a bureaucrat that can't stand for "the system" to be examined.

I never said I would not comply with the law. I get along fine with all the inspectors in my area. I didn't start this thread to bash inspectors, just to point out the shortcomings of the laws & codes.

It is the authorities that want him to have a Cadillac, not me. That is exactly my point. He has a Yugo now & the law requires him to bypass the Kia, going up to the Cadillac.

 

[jumper]

I am not on a high horse, I am pointing out a situation and being assaulted by a bureaucrat that can't stand for "the system" to be examined.

Wow, John must have a hell of a right hook to span the USA.

 

[petersonra]

Realistically there is not a good answer to some of these problems.

Government bureaucrats mostly just do not care much about the problems they create for others as long as they get theirs. Just the way it is.

Maybe the best thing you could do for your friend is to point him in the direction of someone who will do the work off book, and just close your eyes to what is going on.

The sad thing is that it is quite likely that any upgrades the local taxing bodies find out about will result in a big hike in his RE taxes. Even if you donated all the work and materials, he might end not being able to pay the increased taxes.

 

[jmellc]

Wow, John must have a hell of a right hook to span the USA.

Figure of speech.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Wow, John must have a hell of a right hook to span the USA.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I am not on a high horse, I am pointing out a situation and being assaulted by a bureaucrat that can't stand for "the system" to be examined.

I never said I would not comply with the law. I get along fine with all the inspectors in my area. I didn't start this thread to bash inspectors, just to point out the shortcomings of the laws & codes.

It is the authorities that want him to have a Cadillac, not me. That is exactly my point. He has a Yugo now & the law requires him to bypass the Kia, going up to the Cadillac.

I don't care if you examine the system, I don't even care if you bash it, it's not my system, I didn't create it, it was around 35+ years ago when I got in the trades. What I care about is when every one wants to examine and bash, but not take the time to fix it. I remember when we all hated GFCI's and now every contractor worth his salt using them as an upsell.

Like I tell contractors all the time, I don't have to like the code section(s), I just have to enforce it. That's my job.

As for the tax increases you guys keep talking about, repair and maintenance do not increase your taxes nor do doing interior improvements. Usually the only things that set of the tax assessor is adding of square footage and built in pools.

You guys talk like beuracrates aren't people. You're talking to a guy that donates hundreds of hours of his time each year to the community. I have to deal with the same stuff you do whether it's upgrading the local Little League fields or getting generator permits for the Simi Valley Days Festival, or moving a building for the Historical Society. Why do I belong to all of these originizations? (I was president of two) Because I saw a need for change.

Don't just rant about it "Make it Happen."

And I think that's enough from me.

 

[readydave8]

I'm not convinced that any rule or law can create justice in every situation, one size may not fit all. But anarchy probably wouldn't be an improvement.

So what do we need? A separate hardship NEC for those that can't afford the 2011?

Just saying there's no easy answer.

 

[petersonra]

As for the tax increases you guys keep talking about, repair and maintenance do not increase your taxes nor do doing interior improvements. Usually the only things that set of the tax assessor is adding of square footage and built in pools.

Maybe in CA it works that way but most everywhere else if you take out a permit for just about anything you get a RE tax increase. And some places it is a double whammy. They have tax rate caps that any kind of improvement nullifies.

I paid 50 cents for a fence permit one time and put up a split rail fence. I have paid far more in extra RE taxes over the last 15 years or so then what the fence materials cost me. Never again. And my house is now wroth far less, and they won't rduce the assessment at all.

 

[ActionDave]

I don't care if you examine the system, I don't even care if you bash it, it's not my system, I didn't create it, it was around 35+ years ago when I got in the trades. What I care about is when every one wants to examine and bash, but not take the time to fix it. I remember when we all hated GFCI's and now every contractor worth his salt using them as an upsell....
.

GFCI's are a proven technology with a measurable standard. AFCI's...???

Good Inspectors as well as EC's and electricians can all push back.

 

[cowboyjwc]

GFCI's are a proven technology with a measurable standard. AFCI's...???

.

They weren't in 1978. Give AFCI's a chance.

 

[iwire]

GFCI's are a proven technology with a measurable standard.

Not when they hit the market or the code and I have no doubt ECs kicked and screamed about the unneeded cost of these fancy new GFCIs.

 

[jumper]

They weren't in 1978.

I heard that a lot of the old GFCIs would still feed power out if they failed and if they were miswired line/load.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I heard that a lot of the old GFCIs would still feed power out if they failed and if they were miswired line/load.

Oh that and you could barely get them in the outlet box and they also had about a 75% fail rate right out of the box, just plain old didn't work at all.

 

[GUNNING]

OK, new isn't bad just different. For those with OCD, remember that old was new at one time.

Knowing what the requirements are for a code compliant installation is what we are experts in.
Saying "its all bad" and "too much bureaucratic bull pucky" is generalized and isn't accurate.
The rules are there to protect. Protects the installers and their insurance company, protects the property owner, protects the banks that lend the money, protects the neighbors property, all of it increasing the value of the city they live in. Its our job to know whats safe and whats not, whats required and whats bad news.
Its a system that seems to work pretty well.

Knowledge is what makes it work. When In doubt call the local inspector, let them set you straight as to what is required or what they have seen as to what isn't working. Its a nice resource having a knowledgeable AHJ.

By the way there is still a section on knob and tube in the code book. It has the longest safety record of any wiring method because it was one of the first. The test of time is a testament to its viability. BX, Romex, TW, THHN are all new from that perspective. Then again fuses, wire nuts, circuit breakers, are also new concepts and they work just fine.

What no soldered joints and friction tape? No Fuses? Whats that plastic gizmo with a crimp circle?
Join the 21st century.

 

[ActionDave]

They weren't in 1978.

Loved the seventies. Hard core rock and roll was coming of age, gas was still less than a dollar a gallon, and all of the known STD's were curable with dose of antibiotics.

Give AFCI's a chance.

How about you give me a device that works and can be tested to a measurable standard before it becomes mandatory.

 

[growler]

GFCI's are a proven technology with a measurable standard. AFCI's...???

They weren't in 1978. Give AFCI's a chance.

Think of this. Just how many circuits were required to be GFCI protected in 1978?


GFCI requirements have taken over 30 years to get to where they are today.