My Current Gripe

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readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
Ok I do and have understood this position. The issue I have is that for many many years it was ok to have a dedicated outlet for these types of devices. So was it ok to hurt someone then, was the NEC panel stupid and uncaring, or was it just a reasonable exception. I realize the freezer could be moved exposing the unprotected outlet. What about the furnace outlet in the garage!
yes I agree, however by the same logic why do we need grounded receptacles?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
yes I agree, however by the same logic why do we need grounded receptacles?
I think you are missing my point. I was not a electrician when 3 prong outlets became mandated in new contstruction. I seriously doubt that they were only required in certain rooms before being used through out a home. The NEC panel was aware of GFI way before they implemented them for all outlets in a garage or kitchen counter area for that matter. has taken 30 years to be were we are today with them. Go figure.

I would hate to be the one explaining to the homeowner that while they were on vacation a GFCI triped and caused your heater not to turn on and caused 100k in water damage due to a burst pipe that froze. I think given the history of the situation I would think that a dedicated outlet at a inconvienent height or just a single not a duplex outlet, basically something more reasonable.



I was told many years ago you cannot legislate morality. But the NEC is going to give it a try.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
I think you are missing my point. I was not a electrician when 3 prong outlets became mandated in new contstruction. I seriously doubt that they were only required in certain rooms before being used through out a home. The NEC panel was aware of GFI way before they implemented them for all outlets in a garage or kitchen counter area for that matter. has taken 30 years to be were we are today with them. Go figure.

I would hate to be the one explaining to the homeowner that while they were on vacation a GFCI triped and caused your heater not to turn on and caused 100k in water damage due to a burst pipe that froze. I think given the history of the situation I would think that a dedicated outlet at a inconvienent height or just a single not a duplex outlet, basically something more reasonable.



I was told many years ago you cannot legislate morality. But the NEC is going to give it a try.
I thought 3/prongs were originally only required in certain areas and later expanded but that was before my time too.

In Georgia we have a seat belt law, occasionally a person will be trapped in car and die due to seat belt but evidently they save more lives than they cost. So there is not an easy answer.

In general I think we have too many laws & rules to the point that it becomes hard to function. I don't love GFCI's enough to add any to my house, wired to code in 1990. I haven't added any AFCI's.

So when customers complain about nusiance tripping (no $100k damage calls yet) I try to explain that GFCI is there for their safety, usually calms them down long enough to write me a check.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Central NC
Yes, that is good, that is exactly what I said.:roll:


Of course, is a dead human better or worse than spoiled food? :?
How many people can you name that have been killed by not having a GFI outlet for a garage freezer or refrigerator? I do not know of any in my neck of the woods. I do know of 10 or so customers who have lost food due to a GFI outlet tripping after a short term power loss or even a momentary flicker. Some of the GFI outlets are better now & don't do that, but some still do. I have also seen fairly new appliances, well cared for, that trip a GFI outlet, but will not trip a GFI breaker. You can't tell me an appliance 1 or 2 years old is not properly functioning. I can put a meter on it & get no fault current & show no fault from neutral to ground. Somehow, the recep is getting false signal, I don't know all the science.

After doing service calls for about 30 or more of these situations, I stand by my statement that we should still have the exception for applicances. But, since the NFPA didn't ask me, I follow code & now put a GFI breaker in for that ckt. Complies with code & protects food too.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Central NC
Of course, if we want the ultimate in safety, every ckt in the house should be a GFCI receptacle, fed from an AFCI breaker. All should be shunt trip breakers so that any problem in any area shuts the whole system down. Can we get AFCI shunt trip breakers? Gotta check on that. If not, we need 2 panels, 1 with shunts, feeding 1 with AFCI's, in series. But then we need battery powered emergency lights & outdoor sirens to alert the neighbors. Need smoke/CO detectors in every room, crawl space, garage& attic. Porches too, as people go out there to smoke. May start a fire there. Roof should have a beacon light to warn low flying aircraft.:D
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
De Nile isn't just a river in Egypt.

De Nile isn't just a river in Egypt.

Yup, too much regulation. Feel free to pick and choose which ones you want to follow.

Then ask yourself why? I'm thinking the answer will be the same.

"Them", the evil them, they or perhaps those. The ones that make us do these things. The power elite behind the scenes. The committees with hidden agendas driven by secret instructions and there underlings ... the inspectors.

If it was all free would there be a problem? If we were given enough education/enlightenment to understand why would that make a difference?

I didn't think so. As it says in the front of the code book following this code you might not end up with an efficient or workable system.
But it is a start.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Yup, too much regulation. Feel free to pick and choose which ones you want to follow.

Then ask yourself why? I'm thinking the answer will be the same.

"Them", the evil them, they or perhaps those. The ones that make us do these things. The power elite behind the scenes. The committees with hidden agendas driven by secret instructions and there underlings ... the inspectors.

If it was all free would there be a problem? If we were given enough education/enlightenment to understand why would that make a difference?

I didn't think so. As it says in the front of the code book following this code you might not end up with an efficient or workable system.
But it is a start.
:lol:
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Yup, too much regulation. Feel free to pick and choose which ones you want to follow.

Then ask yourself why? I'm thinking the answer will be the same.

"Them", the evil them, they or perhaps those. The ones that make us do these things. The power elite behind the scenes. The committees with hidden agendas driven by secret instructions and there underlings ... the inspectors.

If it was all free would there be a problem? If we were given enough education/enlightenment to understand why would that make a difference?

I didn't think so. As it says in the front of the code book following this code you might not end up with an efficient or workable system.
But it is a start.
Yes and I bet many here think the same. Yes some of the regulation is great some is driven directly by lobbyist. Look here at Ca. It is mandatory for all residences by July of this year to have a CO detector. I bet if you look into the law it give some agency the right to enter to see if you comply? This is what we want of our Govt? Some talk of " well it saves lives. Well how many people are killed or families destroyed by drunk divers. The govt could make it mandatory to install Breath lock-out devices in every car. Boy that would really save lives. We don't do that yet it would save way more lives than a GFCI for a dedicated outlet in a garage.

So you are saying by eliminating a GFCI exception the NFPA is trying to regulate morality. :eek:hmy: YUP!

I am done here, you obviously have made up your mind. :lol:
Can't handle the heat HuH:rant:

I thought 3/prongs were originally only required in certain areas and later expanded but that was before my time too.

In Georgia we have a seat belt law, occasionally a person will be trapped in car and die due to seat belt but evidently they save more lives than they cost. So there is not an easy answer.

In general I think we have too many laws & rules to the point that it becomes hard to function. I don't love GFCI's enough to add any to my house, wired to code in 1990. I haven't added any AFCI's.

So when customers complain about nusiance tripping (no $100k damage calls yet) I try to explain that GFCI is there for their safety, usually calms them down long enough to write me a check.
My comments were generated to stir the pot and get people thinking. I get that you have not got a 100k damage call but I am sure there are some in the colder parts of this great nation that Have. Think of the furnace in the garage of the new home that was plugged into a GFCI that tripped in a power surge or something. Then the pipes froze and burst and when thawed flooded the home and froze and melted and froze again making a whole mess. image003.jpg I bet you got a 100k damage in that there home.
Hey I'm just sayin.......................:happysad: ....... ;)
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Yes and I bet many here think the same. Yes some of the regulation is great some is driven directly by lobbyist. Look here at Ca. It is mandatory for all residences by July of this year to have a CO detector. I bet if you look into the law it give some agency the right to enter to see if you comply? This is what we want of our Govt? Some talk of " well it saves lives. Well how many people are killed or families destroyed by drunk divers. The govt could make it mandatory to install Breath lock-out devices in every car. Boy that would really save lives. We don't do that yet it would save way more lives than a GFCI for a dedicated outlet in a garage.
The people who write the NEC have nothing to do worth drunk driving, they do have to do with electrucal safety and the statistics tell them that GFCIs are more help then harm.


Can't handle the heat HuH:rant:
Hardly the issue, I bailed because you obliviously have a chip on your shoulder and have closed your mind off to any other views.

My comments were generated to stir the pot and get people thinking. I get that you have not got a 100k damage call but I am sure there are some in the colder parts of this great nation that Have. Think of the furnace in the garage of the new home that was plugged into a GFCI that tripped in a power surge or something. Then the pipes froze and burst and when thawed flooded the home and froze and melted and froze again making a whole mess.
Again none of that is the concern of the people who write the NEC, it just is not their issue at all.

Of course no one forces any area to adopt the NEC as written, any area can make amendments to it if they feel the rules create a hardship.

I think NJ has amended the NEC to leave these exceptions intact.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
The people who write the NEC have nothing to do worth drunk driving, they do have to do with electrucal safety and the statistics tell them that GFCIs are more help then harm.




Hardly the issue, I bailed because you obliviously have a chip on your shoulder and have closed your mind off to any other views.



Again none of that is the concern of the people who write the NEC, it just is not their issue at all.

Of course no one forces any area to adopt the NEC as written, any area can make amendments to it if they feel the rules create a hardship.

I think NJ has amended the NEC to leave these exceptions intact.
No chip on my shoulder , Just keeping this rant going. Making a post or two, or three....
Keeping the conversation going. Making a point here and there.
Just to let all know ..I like GFCI I had the first one installed in my neighborhood when I was a child in the late 70's. I built a darkroom and had the EC install a GFCI for me in there. Thought it was a good Idea.


As to making modifications to adoption of codes. Good luck! It is virtually impossible to accomplish such a thing here in CA. unless you gots a big lobbyist firm. The way the laws a structured the exeption need to be more restrictive than less. Just sayin:happyno:
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
That is a great point that I kind of ignored.
Have you folks hever heard of Survival of the fittest or proces of natural selection?

Look I would not like it if something happed to a loved one that could clearly have been prevented but we do live in a fairly save country.

I will tell you that this rant has given me an Idea for a new product that I will be looking into......
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Have you folks hever heard of Survival of the fittest or proces of natural selection?
You are really starting to make less sense with each post.:D

It is a GFCI, it costs less than $15.00 and if the peoples appliances are in good working order the GCI will not trip.

Why is this such an issue for you?

You should see the commercial kitchen owners having to deal with this, they hate it.

But commercial kitchen employees were getting electrocuted ..... as in dead ..... so the GFCIs go in.



Look I would not like it if something happened to a loved one that could clearly have been prevented but we do live in a fairly safe country.
???????
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
The NEC is made up of a whole series of compromises so that one can gain enough consensus that something gets done.

I am not aware of any statistics regarding how many lives (if any) that GFCIs have saved. It is something that is assumed, but there is no way to know with any certainty.

It is likely that improperly bonded/grounded circuits cause a fair number of deaths every year, so proper bonding/grounding certainly saves lives.

Whether AFCIs save any lives is dubious at best. The most likely answer is that they probably protect much more in older installations where they are not mandated due to grandfathering of existing wiring, then in the new installations where they are required, but probably do little or no good above what has to be installed to meet the current codes anyway. Of course since they may well not work at all in older installations. Just bringing things up to code other than AFCIs might well work just as well.

Smokes and CO monitors probably save 100X the number of lives annually as GFCIs and/or AFCIs ever have in total.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The NEC is made up of a whole series of compromises so that one can gain enough consensus that something gets done.
Sounds like life in general.

I am not aware of any statistics regarding how many lives (if any) that GFCIs have saved. It is something that is assumed, but there is no way to know with any certainty.
Yes, without a doubt a hard thing to nail down with any certainty.

It is likely that improperly bonded/grounded circuits cause a fair number of deaths every year, so proper bonding/grounding certainly saves lives.
I agree.

Whether AFCIs save any lives is dubious at best. The most likely answer is that they probably protect much more in older installations where they are not mandated due to grandfathering of existing wiring, then in the new installations where they are required, but probably do little or no good above what has to be installed to meet the current codes anyway. Of course since they may well not work at all in older installations. Just bringing things up to code other than AFCIs might well work just as well.
I agree again.

Smokes and CO monitors probably save 100X the number of lives annually as GFCIs and/or AFCIs ever have in total.
Maybe, but one thing that does work is sprinkler systems, the most bang for our buck.
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
Modius Strip Logic trap.

Modius Strip Logic trap.

Why not put AFCI's on main breakers and increase the tolerance on the GFCI component from 15ma to 5ma? I think that would be a great idea.

As for sprinklers, I think they are great too. Easy to install. Would go great in residential kitchens where kitchen fires happen. Put them in bed rooms and living rooms where CAFCI are mandated then make the exception of no AFCI needed. No big deal just one head or maybe 6 or 7. Make the insurance discount mandatory and substrantial. They are PVC now and passive. Could replace smoke detectors too with that option. Well maybe one or two smokes.


Need to GFCI the whole house because of all that possible water. Then there would be a need for Cord in use covers in case they went off. Weather resistant GFCI's in the wall because they might get wet. Nema 3r panels because you would need a sprinkler over the panel. Myers hubs for the conduit entering the Nema 3r trough for the panel.....:cry:
 

haskindm

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Read article 90 of the code. The purpose of the code is safety. The code does not care about convenience, costs, or reliability, just safety.
GFCI's are safer than non-GFCI's, period. So they are required where it is probable that a person may come in contact with electricity and a grounded surface, such as the concrete floor in your garage. So the GFCI may trip, and your beer get warm, or the food in your freezer may spoil... Tough. The fact is that your daughter going into the garage and standing on the concrete floor with her bare feet does not get electrocuted when touching the faulty refrigerator that is plugged into a GFCI protected circuit.
While talking about what MAY happen. I read about a family whose power went off while they were away. The food in their freezer thawed, but re-froze when the power came back on. The whole family died from food poisoning. A GFCI that tripped off during the power failure would have saved them. GFCI's cause some problems but save lives. I do remember when we first started installing GFCI's. All of the same complaints that we hear about AFCI's were made regarding GFCI's.
The code is not perfect, but how do you decide what safety devices cause a "hardship". There will be situations where the "improvements" will put a job out-of-reach for some home-owners. How do you decide when a person can "afford" to meet code?
The fact is that the code must be applied to all installations or it just doesn't work.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Why not put AFCI's on main breakers and increase the tolerance on the GFCI component from 15ma to 5ma?
Because 15 ma will not protect people and GFCIs are intended to be people protectors.





Need to GFCI the whole house because ....
I am all for it and I am sure it is coming, there is little practical reason not to.
 
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