My Current Gripe

[iwire]

Bob,

The last sentence in 406.4(D)(4) informs us that this requirement does not take effect until 2014 very similar to the inception of AFCI requirements back in 1999.

Yes it does, I fully understand that.

Now is there any requirement to use these devices?

No, not at this time.

 

[jmellc]

That's pretty much what I thought but I guess I was wrong. On Friday I saw a refrigerator with a warning label on the cord that said not to use with an ungrounded outlet ( makes sense ) but the label also said not to be used with "GFCI protected outlet". I called the manufacturer and they said the appliance would trip with a GFCI protected outlet ( surprise, surprise ).

I guess it's legal to sell an appliance that is noted listed to work with GFCI protection but I do think they should warn the customer because most people will not read the label on the cord before purchase. This is the first one I have noticed as I don't normally read those labels either. It also stated the same thing in the installation instuctions.

If there is anyone looking to purchase a cheap refrigerator I would suggest looking for said warning label.

My vindication at last!:angel:

 

[iwire]

That's pretty much what I thought but I guess I was wrong. On Friday I saw a refrigerator with a warning label on the cord that said not to use with an ungrounded outlet ( makes sense ) but the label also said not to be used with "GFCI protected outlet". I called the manufacturer and they said the appliance would trip with a GFCI protected outlet ( surprise, surprise ).

I guess it's legal to sell an appliance that is noted listed to work with GFCI protection but I do think they should warn the customer because most people will not read the label on the cord before purchase. This is the first one I have noticed as I don't normally read those labels either. It also stated the same thing in the installation instuctions.

If there is anyone looking to purchase a cheap refrigerator I would suggest looking for said warning label.

My vindication at last!:angel:

So because some manufacturer makes a POS refrigerator you feel that proves the NEC should not require GFCIs?

That is ridiculous, if this refrigerator will in fact trip a GFCI that means that if the EGC becomes open this appliance is deadly.

The NEC has no control at all over how appliances are constructed.

 

[roger]

So because some manufacturer makes a POS refrigerator you feel that proves the NEC should not require GFCIs?

That is ridiculous, if this refrigerator will in fact trip a GFCI that means that if the EGC becomes open this appliance is deadly.

The NEC has no control at all over how appliances are constructed.

I agree Bob, when the manufacturer looses enough sales they will make a better product.

Awhile back we finished a commercial kitchen with a three items (not refrigerators) that said not to use on a GFCI protected circuit and sure enough two out of three would trip the GFCI. The owner wanted us to remove the GFCI's which we refused to do and we explained that if anything happened to one of their employees the liability would be more than they wanted to deal with but, after we were gone they could do what they wanted to do.

They returned the equipment with a restocking fee and told the vendor that they would not be purchasing anything else from the particular manufacturer.

Roger

 

[Sierrasparky]

So a lot.

It is not a requiment as you had said it was..

Well I am sorry that you feel I meant it was made a requirement. You just don't seem to get my point. A Code body made a mandate with a options to comply using a product not invented yet! ( or at least manufactured for general use)

And no one is requiring you use them, the NEC gives you that option if the devices were on the market.

So actually you are complaining the NEC gave you options..

So what , can you get one? who has the right to make a code option without first having the product availability. THat would be as rediculous as for the federal government to say " if you can prove that you never get ill then you don't need to be part of the new heath care program!

This is foolish crap, the fact we did without them has nothing to do with if they would help..

we don't need to mandate every new wiz bang device that may save us from ourselves. Cheap and garbage wiring methods are invented such as NM and then we have to develop some wizard device to keep us safe when used. When I started doing this electrical thing I never used a piece of rope. The only thing carried in the truck was Pipe, flex, BX , mc cable. I don't think you will ever see these problems with those methods.
I realize that these wiring methods would not protect from a appliance that is arcing but is that reall what caused the code implementation or was it all the nails in the wires causing fires? Who knows...

The electrical trade went a long time with out circuit breakers or enclosed wiring, I guess those are also stupid requirements.

And that means ............... nothing.

 

[jumper]

The NEC has no control at all over how appliances are constructed.

Actually Bob there are those design issues in 422 and 440.

440.65 Leakage-Current Detector-Interrupter (LCDI)
and Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI). Single-phase
cord-and-plug-connected room air conditioners shall be
provided with factory-installed LCDI or AFCI protection.
The LCDI or AFCI protection shall be an integral part of
the attachment plug or be located in the power supply cord
within 300 mm (12 in.) of the attachment plug

422.41 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Appliances Subject to
Immersion. Cord-and-plug-connected portable, freestanding
hydromassage units and hand-held hair dryers shall be constructed
to provide protection for personnel against electrocution
when immersed while in the “on” or “off” position.

Newer vending machines also included.

 

[iwire]

Actually Bob there are those design issues in 422 and 440.

440.65 Leakage-Current Detector-Interrupter (LCDI)
and Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI). Single-phase
cord-and-plug-connected room air conditioners shall be
provided with factory-installed LCDI or AFCI protection.
The LCDI or AFCI protection shall be an integral part of
the attachment plug or be located in the power supply cord
within 300 mm (12 in.) of the attachment plug

422.41 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Appliances Subject to
Immersion. Cord-and-plug-connected portable, freestanding
hydromassage units and hand-held hair dryers shall be constructed
to provide protection for personnel against electrocution
when immersed while in the ?on? or ?off? position.

Newer vending machines also included.

OK, that is a good point apparently they do have some influence on appliances.

Now explain to me how that should change the need for GFCI receptacles?

 

[iwire]

Well I am sorry that you feel I meant it was made a requirement. You just don't seem to get my point. A Code body made a mandate with a options to comply using a product not invented yet! ( or at least manufactured for general use)

I don't see any problem with that at all.

So what , can you get one? who has the right to make a code option without first having the product availability. THat would be as rediculous as for the federal government to say " if you can prove that you never get ill then you don't need to be part of the new heath care program!

I just don't see it that way at all and never will.

we don't need to mandate every new wiz bang device that may save us from ourselves.

So you think that the code making panel should ignore new safety devices that come along even though the purpose of the code is electrical safety.

That makes no sense at all.

Cheap and garbage wiring methods are invented such as NM and then we have to develop some wizard device to keep us safe when used. When I started doing this electrical thing I never used a piece of rope. The only thing carried in the truck was Pipe, flex, BX , mc cable. I don't think you will ever see these problems with those methods.

Oh, so now we are getting down to it.

You don't want the code to require new devices but you would be happy if they required more expensive wiring methods.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Iwire ihave a problem with wiring methods thast require the need for a majical device to cure it's short commings. I am not saying NM is bad you get what you pay for.

As far as new products and methods. These things need to be tried and tested and perfected pror to use let alone a code implementation. What we have here is cart before the horse. The code body can certainly lobby manufatures to design for a future device but to create code before availability os just over the line.

I want you to know I have yet to have a complaint on a AFCI I have installed. However I have been on several service calls where there is no resaon why the darn thing trips. After doing all the proper troubleshooting, checking all ouilet boxes for miswire and don't find the issue. I don't think its right to tell a customer that " hey you will just have to live with it or I can re wire that circuit. Furthermore you have no idea how many EC remove the AFCI when they cannot find the problem. I don't know if more training is needed but there are some serious issues out there.

I forgot to chime in on tamper proof recepts. So now we have to protect every home with these devices regardless if you have kids or not. We now are taking the responsibility out of the hands of the parents. it needs to stop somewhere.

 

[hurk27]

Just to point out, nether GFCI's of AFCI's were developed because of a certain wiring method, their use has nothing to do with which wiring method you use, AFCI's were devoloped as a need to detect glowing series arcs mainly at loose or corroded connections at devices of which I have not seen any AFCI detect as of yet, I agree that they were push through the code before their time, but it had nothing to do with a type of wiring method.

 

[jumper]

OK, that is a good point apparently they do have some influence on appliances.

Now explain to me how that should change the need for GFCI receptacles?

I am not in this thread, GFCI protection is a good thing to me, I just did a drive-by post to pick on you.............. I'm bored.

 

[PEDRO ESCOVILLA]

install a single circuit with a single device for the freezer in the garage and fasten the freezer in place. now it's a dedicateed circuit for a fastened in place piece of equipment. gee, that was easy.

 

[iwire]

install a single circuit with a single device for the freezer in the garage and fasten the freezer in place. now it's a dedicateed circuit for a fastened in place piece of equipment. gee, that was easy.

Nope, not any longer, those exceptions are gone.

 

[iwire]

I am not in this thread, GFCI protection is a good thing to me, I just did a drive-by post to pick on you.............. I'm bored.

LMAO :lol::lol::lol:

 

[Sierrasparky]

Nope, not any longer, those exceptions are gone.

You just had to take the wind out of Pedro's sail , just had to>>>>>>>>>> :happyno:

Hey Iwire how come you as a moderator allow this thread to keep going and going and going while other threads are closed that are very informative are worthy ,and fit withing the scope of the forum rules?

I don't mind the rants as long as the rest are ok with them. It sort of gives a place to vent when you need to.

 

[jim dungar]

Hey Iwire how come you as a moderator allow this thread to keep going and going and going ...

Iwire is not the only moderator 'watching' this thread. For the most part we are staying on topic and civil, I know I have had no reason to not leave it open.

 

[Little Bill]

Iwire is not the only moderator 'watching' this thread. For the most part we are staying on topic and civil, I know I have had no reason to not leave it open.

Please don't take this as trying to derail or sidetrack the thread, but since the subject has been brought up, do you (the mods) have certain thread categories to look at or do you all look at all of them?

 

[jim dungar]

Please don't take this as trying to derail or sidetrack the thread, but since the subject has been brought up, do you (the mods) have certain thread categories to look at or do you all look at all of them?

We look at what we want to, we do not have assignments. While it is likely that some moderator will eventually look at a thread, it is totally possible that it does not happen in a timely manner. That is why we ask every member to use the "Report Post" button if they see an issue, rather than waiting for a moderator to trip over it.

 

[Little Bill]

We look at what we want to, we do not have assignments. While it is likely that some moderator will eventually look at a thread, it is totally possible that it does not happen in a timely manner. That is why we ask every member to use the "Report Post" button if they see an issue, rather than waiting for a moderator to trip over it.

Thanks! That was one of those "always wanted to know but was afraid to ask" type questions.

Now, do I need to report this thread as "hijacked"?:lol:

 

[renosteinke]

There's something to be said for multiple forum ID's and 'stealth' moderators.

After all, you can't be sure when "Joe Moderator" is speaking as 'Joe" and when he's speaking as "moderator." This can be intimidating to a new member, who might see that 'moderator' title and think he's getting rank pulled on him. Trust me, the mods are as human as the rest of us mere mortals.

I can say this from experience, though: it's pretty rare for a moderator to do anything 'solo.' If someone goes off the reservation, there will likely be a flurry of e-mails between mods before the post/poster gets 'nuked.'