My Current Gripe

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GUNNING

Senior Member
Language skills ..my bad

Language skills ..my bad

What I meant to say is that CAFCI's have a 15ma gfci component, and that increasing the sensitivity of the gfci component to 5ma on an CAFCI would essentially do away with GFCI's.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I am all for it and I am sure it is coming, there is little practical reason not to.

Well that said it all.
Do we really need GFI or AFCI in every room!

Iwire if you did not get the point I made about Natural selection I will not elaborate it is not a very pleasent topic for some.


I like technology, however there is a limit as to what should be implemented. One thing that I would like all of you to be aware of is that there are many elderly folks that use machines at night when they sleep. Most of these machines have alarms when the power goes. However many elderly cannot hear these alarms and thus will not be able to change over to a manual device. It's a fact! If the power goes these people can expire!

GFI and Acrfault should have some sort of exeptions to the rule to allow for this without jumping through the red tape of changing the rules.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Well that said it all.
Do we really need GFI or AFCI in every room!

Lets leave AFCIs out of this, I said nothing of AFCIs.

As far as GFCIs ........ can you give a practical reason not to add GFCI protection to most locations?



Iwire if you did not get the point I made about Natural selection I will not elaborate it is not a very pleasent topic for some.

Are you a kid?

I mean really, your reason for not wanting GFCIs seems to be because you want people who make a mistake to get to get hurt.




I like technology, however there is a limit as to what should be implemented.

GFCIs are cheap and they help, they are practical.




One thing that I would like all of you to be aware of is that there are many elderly folks that use machines at night when they sleep. Most of these machines have alarms when the power goes. However many elderly cannot hear these alarms and thus will not be able to change over to a manual device. It's a fact! If the power goes these people can expire!

If you know of someone in that situation are you not also concerned about a power company outage? A tripped branch circuit because they plugged a heater in when they went to bed, etc.

Honestly, if their life depends on continuous electricity they may want some automatic back up. :eek:hmy:
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Lets leave AFCIs out of this, I said nothing of AFCIs.

As far as GFCIs ........ can you give a practical reason not to add GFCI protection to most locations?





Are you a kid? Nope but it is a fact of life!

I mean really, your reason for not wanting GFCIs seems to be because you want people who make a mistake to get to get hurt.

Bad things happen. Do we really need to protect our lives from every concievable incident. Does a bit of common sense need to be used.





GFCIs are cheap and they help, they are practical.

Yes they are






If you know of someone in that situation are you not also concerned about a power company outage? A tripped branch circuit because they plugged a heater in when they went to bed, etc.

Honestly, if their life depends on continuous electricity they may want some automatic back up. :eek:hmy:

So you have a generator and transfer switch what device resets the GFCI or the AFCI !!!! OOOPS. That is what I am getting you to think about.

Back again and to my picture of the frozen house. There is absolutly no reason why the furnace cannot be plugged into a dedicated outlet ( Single not a duplex) out of the way of general use so that accidental shock would not occur. You want to protect and legislate people from pure stupidity!
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer - Power Systems
There is absolutly no reason why the furnace cannot be plugged into a dedicated outlet....
Why not directly wire it.
FWIW, I can't remember seeing a furnace that came with a factory cord. For that matter I cannot remember seeing a whole house furnace of only 2.4kW.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Why not directly wire it.
FWIW, I can't remember seeing a furnace that came with a factory cord. For that matter I cannot remember seeing a whole house furnace of only 2.4kW.

Sure that is one thing you can do. It's just that these days were I am the HVAC guy wants a plug no Hard wire. He also wants a outlet for condensate drain and Propane sensor. sure We can do it differently but what would we have to gripe about?
This post is getting almost 3000 views- WoW :roll:
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
Cord and plug for a furnace? I got shot down for that a while back. Motor to big.

There is a schism happening between the trades. The "construction entrepreneurs" don't want to hire subs they can't control or understand.
Hence the A/C guy is doing the electric for his stuff, the carpenter is putting in switches and outlets, the plumber is splicing cut wires in the walls and the painter is covering them up with drywall.

Things too complicated? Costly? The easy way out is to bypass em. Then flip the house. Carpe Diem!

GFCI's? give me a break, they work as advertised.
What we have isn't a too complicated code, its ignorance on a grand scale.:slaphead:
Although I must admit the doubling up of the tables in metric was overkill itwas jsut one of the things that took the craft out of the code and replaced it with statutory verbage. A guy knockin holes through a stud isn't going to understand the nuances of metric vs english measure, or which of 3 load calculations to use, or why use the 60c column instead of the 90c column. Celsius?
My kids don't say no they say "Im not doin that" like its there right not to. Same thing is happening to the status quo. Somebody decides everyone shouldn't be doing something and goes bat sh*t crazy if it continues. Hence Fox news or any of those other screaming bullies called talking heads creates the conversation patterns we use in everyday life.
Give me civility and organization and politeness and gentile conversation. Let there be negotiation, acquiescence, deferment and agreement. To put it simply communication and understanding. Progress with a goal and not destruction for the self satisfaction of watching something go boom. That by definition is a form of mental illness.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Out here I guess the AHJ would rather see a plug and cord then to it hardwired so that a service tech just need to unplug the unit and worry about a switch or breaker for servicing.

On a note that seemed to have slipped past but was a topic of discussion a few years back when AFCI's were first contemplated. At the time when AFCI was first implemented I thought ok what a neat device. Then it occured to me after seeing an advertisment by SQ D showing a nail from a picture hanger piercing a wire and later causing a fire. The first thing that came to mind was how is that AFCI going to know that the nail just pierced the feeder for the sub panel or yet a kitchen circuit. These thoughts were back in 2001. The chief inspector called me and asked me if I had ever seen or heard of these devices. I said yes and we then started discussing some of the concerns. One of the solutions I came up with was insead of ever increasing AFCI protected circuits leading to a main that was AFCI, How about just creating a area around the sleeping zones and create a proper egress. This area would not allow non AFCI NM wire to be run and all non- afci circuits to be in mettalic conduit weather MC or ... My thinking was that the mettalic conduit would supress and cause the breaker to trip if a nail pierced it. The conduit would contain the ARC. Any how just thinking out of the box at the time.

Today we have a movement generated by manufactures and Patent holders to implement a safety device. Is this even close to the best solution or is it he who has the most lobby money wins.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Is this even close to the best solution or is it he who has the most lobby money wins.

I think we all know that when there is money to be made, the "best" answer usually ends up being lost to whatever money is to be made on a grand scale.

The thing is that if NM is installed properly, the chances of getting an ARC from hanging a picture or whatever is very low. There is only so much that can be done to protect people from danger. is it ethical to mandate protection schemes primarily to benefit a few people who are making money off of those mandate?

Look at some of the code things in Chicago and other places where (for instance) NM is all but banned, mostly to benefit contractors. It has very little if anything to do with safety. It is all about money. Whatever safety benefits there are, if any, is a distant second in the reasons category.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I think we all know that when there is money to be made, the "best" answer usually ends up being lost to whatever money is to be made on a grand scale.

The thing is that if NM is installed properly, the chances of getting an ARC from hanging a picture or whatever is very low. There is only so much that can be done to protect people from danger. is it ethical to mandate protection schemes primarily to benefit a few people who are making money off of those mandate?

Look at some of the code things in Chicago and other places where (for instance) NM is all but banned, mostly to benefit contractors. It has very little if anything to do with safety. It is all about money. Whatever safety benefits there are, if any, is a distant second in the reasons category.

Point well taken.
Just cuz I mentioned a nail from a picture that is not the only nail that could damage the install. Out here in Ca we are in a seismic zone so we have sheer panel ( plywood) on many inside walls not just the Exterior sheathing. Properly installed NM cannot escape a nail usually a 10d that misses the stud.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Shear panels ... funny you should mention that ....

I once ran pipe in a new building the the future location of the air conditioning condensing unit. My run was, in part, through an open wall. No sooner had I completed the run -but not yet pulled any wire- than along comes the carpenter, hanging the OSB on the face of that wall, to make it a shear wall.

The guy completely missed the stud, with every nail in the row. Instead, every nail was set in the pipe I had just run. Gotta love the pneumatic nailers! Small wonder I had a wee bit of difficulty fishing the wire ..... OOPS.

No sooner do you make things idiot-proof, and they come out with a better idiot.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Shear panels ... funny you should mention that ....

I once ran pipe in a new building the the future location of the air conditioning condensing unit. My run was, in part, through an open wall. No sooner had I completed the run -but not yet pulled any wire- than along comes the carpenter, hanging the OSB on the face of that wall, to make it a shear wall.

The guy completely missed the stud, with every nail in the row. Instead, every nail was set in the pipe I had just run. Gotta love the pneumatic nailers! Small wonder I had a wee bit of difficulty fishing the wire ..... OOPS.

No sooner do you make things idiot-proof, and they come out with a better idiot.

Boy I thought the Pipe would stop a nail. wow all the nails in a row. The Guy did not notice that the nails did not go in flush.
Next time I suppose Rigid!:slaphead:
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Although nail plates are not required for EMT or PVC, I will tell ya: nails and screws will penetrate either in a heart beat.

I always us nail-plates even the dottie hardened ones.
however the don't protect from a stray nail.
Usually the framer knows that he hit a plate or a pipe as the nail does not seat flush. Framers like that pull out the 32 oz framer and finish the nail off.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Sure that is one thing you can do. It's just that these days were I am the HVAC guy wants a plug no Hard wire. He also wants a outlet for condensate drain and Propane sensor. sure We can do it differently but what would we have to gripe about?
This post is getting almost 3000 views- WoW :roll:

Last time cord/plug was discussed in a local code class, our chief inspector said his dept will not approve hard wiring if the equipment is sold with cord/plug. That was a few years ago, haven't heard the issue lately.

No one here wants to do sloppy & unsafe wiring. Most of us have seen the trash that some jacklegs install. I see it every day & see new records being set all the time. My gripe is the system forcing technology that is hard to pay for while also allowing sloppy methods like backstabbing devices. Most burned switches or receptacles I have replaced have been a direct result of backstabbing. AFCI's may reduce number of burned devices, maybe not. Time will tell.

Tell my customers that properly functioning appliances will not trip a GFCI receptacle or that a power flicker will not trip one. Again, some of the newer ones seem better on this but not all.

I truly think we are at the point where some of the "rule makers" lie awake at night thinking of new rules, whether needed or not. After all, without new rules, a rule maker is out of a job.
 
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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Yes and I bet many here think the same. Yes some of the regulation is great some is driven directly by lobbyist. Look here at Ca. It is mandatory for all residences by July of this year to have a CO detector. I bet if you look into the law it give some agency the right to enter to see if you comply? This is what we want of our Govt? Some talk of " well it saves lives. Well how many people are killed or families destroyed by drunk divers. The govt could make it mandatory to install Breath lock-out devices in every car. Boy that would really save lives. We don't do that yet it would save way more lives than a GFCI for a dedicated outlet in a garage.


Can't handle the heat HuH:rant:

My comments were generated to stir the pot and get people thinking. I get that you have not got a 100k damage call but I am sure there are some in the colder parts of this great nation that Have. Think of the furnace in the garage of the new home that was plugged into a GFCI that tripped in a power surge or something. Then the pipes froze and burst and when thawed flooded the home and froze and melted and froze again making a whole mess. View attachment 5803 I bet you got a 100k damage in that there home.
Hey I'm just sayin.......................:happysad: ....... ;)

Again, no one really cares about the unintended consequences of saving us from ourselves. Read the book Liberty & Tyranny by Mark Levin. He describes the hard tyrant who rules by iron hand and the soft tyrant who terrorizes & oppresses, all the while believing he is doing good & being morally superior. While that is politics & this is business, the similarities are there.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Again, no one really cares about the unintended consequences of saving us from ourselves. Read the book Liberty & Tyranny by Mark Levin. He describes the hard tyrant who rules by iron hand and the soft tyrant who terrorizes & oppresses, all the while believing he is doing good & being morally superior. While that is politics & this is business, the similarities are there.

You do understand this thread is about GFCIs right? :blink::roll:
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Although nail plates are not required for EMT or PVC, I will tell ya: nails and screws will penetrate either in a heart beat.

Don't recall a nail puncturing EMT but I've see tek tip drywall screws zap right through it numerous times.
 
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