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My LOTO was cut off today.....

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Fulthrotl

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Location
HB, CA (19 Hrs. 22 Min. from Winged Horses)
Occupation
E
when i got to the job. seems the millwrights did it.
lock was gone, and door was ajar. enclosure lock
was on had exposed bus with 400 amps of 480 in it.

there will be a counseling session tomorrow morning
at 7 am. all power is locked off with a nice sturdy lock
and chain, and will remain off until this is resolved.
they have work to get done? not right now, they don't.
i'm pissed.

the part is, my cellphone number is on all my locks.

normal plan of action is to remove the offending parties
from the job site permanently. we shall see what happens.




 
Besoeker

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Fulthrotl said:
when i got to the job. seems the millwrights did it.
lock was gone, and door was ajar. enclosure lock
was on had exposed bus with 400 amps of 480 in it.

there will be a counseling session tomorrow morning
at 7 am. all power is locked off with a nice sturdy lock
and chain, and will remain off until this is resolved.
they have work to get done? not right now, they don't.
i'm pissed.

the part is, my cellphone number is on all my locks.

normal plan of action is to remove the offending parties
from the job site permanently. we shall see what happens.
Click to expand...
To me that sounds like bordering on a criminal offence, if not an actual criminal offence.
It certainly would result in instant dismissal here.
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Was the lock really for LOTO?
It appears it was an 'equipment lock' to prevent access, not a lock to insure conductors stay de-energized.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
OSHA does not permit a "lockout" lock to remain on the equipment if the person that placed the lock is not on site. You can put some other type of lock if the equipment is not is not is a safe condition, but a "lockout" lock is intended to only be in place when you are actually working on the equipment. Lockout policies for the plants in my area require what the call a "transfer" lock when the equipment is not is a safe condition to be energized but no one is actively working on it. When work starts the next day the transfer lock is replaced with a lockout lock.
 
Z

zbang

Senior Member
Location
Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
Any reason the lockout lock and transfer lock can't be the same if there is only one qualified person on site? Or, does the purpose go with the physical locking device or with the use of it? In this case, if Fulthrotl puts on a lock because something down the line isn't safe to operate, he goes home for the night, and the site is otherwise unoccupied, it doesn't make sense to swap locks. (If work on the site continues or there are other electricians, it might, but I don't think it does in this case.)

But even so, they ought to have a procedure for contacting people, getting approvals, etc before cutting the lock, and it sounds like those didn't exist or weren't followed.
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Fulthrotl said:
when i got to the job. seems the millwrights did it.
lock was gone, and door was ajar. enclosure lock
was on had exposed bus with 400 amps of 480 in it.

there will be a counseling session tomorrow morning
at 7 am. all power is locked off with a nice sturdy lock
and chain, and will remain off until this is resolved.
they have work to get done? not right now, they don't.
i'm pissed.

the part is, my cellphone number is on all my locks.

normal plan of action is to remove the offending parties
from the job site permanently. we shall see what happens.




Click to expand...

Looks like a field made up J-box. Is that proper spacing from buss to buss or from buss to enclosure for 480v
 
G

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
And, once again, were the wires disconnected and stored and the culprits reconnected them to get power? That would really be pushing it.
LOTO or not, non-electricians, without PPE, should not have been inside the box at all.

If they did not actually do anything inside the box, lethal injection is probably more appropriate than crucifixion. :)
 
ActionDave

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
GoldDigger said:
And, once again, were the wires disconnected and stored and the culprits reconnected them to get power? That would really be pushing it.
LOTO or not, non-electricians, without PPE, should not have been inside the box at all.

If they did not actually do anything inside the box, lethal injection is probably more appropriate than crucifixion. :)
Click to expand...
Millwrights can be an unruly bunch for sure.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
zbang said:
Any reason the lockout lock and transfer lock can't be the same if there is only one qualified person on site? Or, does the purpose go with the physical locking device or with the use of it? In this case, if Fulthrotl puts on a lock because something down the line isn't safe to operate, he goes home for the night, and the site is otherwise unoccupied, it doesn't make sense to swap locks. (If work on the site continues or there are other electricians, it might, but I don't think it does in this case.)

But even so, they ought to have a procedure for contacting people, getting approvals, etc before cutting the lock, and it sounds like those didn't exist or weren't followed.
Click to expand...
The OSHA rules require that the lockout out lock be clearly identified and not used for any purpose other than as a lockout lock.

Yes, even a transfer lock needs the approval of the the lock owner and it should not be removed with by someone other than the lock owner.
 
G

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
When I was at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center and the beam was down temporarily for maintenance everyone who entered the beam area had to hold his own key from a large bank of Kirk Key cylinders. No key, no entry.
 
Fulthrotl

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Location
HB, CA (19 Hrs. 22 Min. from Winged Horses)
Occupation
E
mivey said:
Fulthrotl loves it when people redo his connections but assume no liability.:p
Click to expand...

in no particular order:

there was a tag, and a padlock with my cellphone number on it.
i'm the only electrician there. it was a brady LOTO lock.
no, a transfer lock was not used when i was offsite.
i don't know who i'd transfer it to. i suppose one of the voices
in my head, but which one?

the air break between the buss and anything else was greater
than the thickness of the UL listed standoffs.

the POCO inspector thought it was acceptable. so did the third party
(Intertek) who did the UL field listing on the entire working assembly.
including that box.

phase rotation was reversed on the right hand leads to the
equipment. bolts were re torqued, and not remarked.
allen head capscrews, nylocks, and washers are all grade 8.

without getting into too much detail, i'll say it's not my first
experience of these fellows unprofessionalism.

the short version is, if you cut off an identified lock that is there
for safety purposes, and it isn't yours, there is going to be some
backlash.

was it a OSHA compliant LOTO procedure? it seems not, based on the
informed folks here.

the lock was there for a simple reason. unauthorized removal could
put you in mortal danger.

you could get shocked, as well.
 
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