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My LOTO was cut off today.....

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umichEE

Member
If that is true it is just another example of the unsurprising ridiculousness of our government. Perhaps we should put locks on every panel in every new construction we work on, even when the utility isn't hooked up yet, because you never know, someone may sneak in and turn it on.

In the industrial world, it's one person, one lock, in line with OSHA requirements. Even if leads are disconnected or something like that, each person should have a personal lock in place. What is in place to stop someone from landing leads and throwing a switch to energize if craftsmen don't have a lock in place at the energy-isolating device? A foreman that insisted on your approach would not be working at my facility.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
In the industrial world, it's one person, one lock, in line with OSHA requirements. Even if leads are disconnected or something like that, each person should have a personal lock in place. What is in place to stop someone from landing leads and throwing a switch to energize if craftsmen don't have a lock in place at the energy-isolating device? A foreman that insisted on your approach would not be working at my facility.

The world where you are working on operational industrial is completely different than remodel and new construction electrical.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Doesn't excuse the totally irresponsible action somebody took.

Which irresponsible action is that? My statement is in regards to a concept that, If I have twenty electricians working in an area the is being remodeled and for the sake of argument let's say it is going to take four weeks. Then every morning twenty electricians have to go in and hang tags and locks on each circuit that is not only turned off, and locked by the foreman, but is going to stay that way for the next month, then come in every afternoon and remove their tags because there is no real guarantee they will be back the next day.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
In the industrial world, it's one person, one lock, in line with OSHA requirements. Even if leads are disconnected or something like that, each person should have a personal lock in place. What is in place to stop someone from landing leads and throwing a switch to energize if craftsmen don't have a lock in place at the energy-isolating device? A foreman that insisted on your approach would not be working at my facility.

You assign to me, actions that I would not take. If a facility wanted the level that you are asking then as long as they were paying for it, then I would perform it. As to the rest of your statement, it is not on mark. First off OSHA doesn't even require a lock. They require a tag. I am also pretty sure that if you disconnect the leads, then OSHA doesn't require anything. And as to you question "what is to stop..." The entire concept of preforming electrical work and virtually every common sense (which I know isn't necessarily viable) and the rules that must be in place at every industrial facility in regards to performing work. One might as well say that the typical brass LOTO lock is not adequate because a hack saw can easily cut through it and what is to prevent a person from cutting it off when you aren't looking. Or any of hundreds of other overreaching requirements.

If your facility has defined requirements that are part of the bid/pricing documents then I would be the last to refuse to do that for cost plus overhead and profit. Oh, and I am not a foreman for a long time.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
As I said before I agree we treat it differently but the rules are the same.

And I can say that I have never seen a construction project where more than one electrician from the same company has hung tags on a circuit that is intended to be off for days, weeks or months.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Which irresponsible action is that?
Cutting off the lock of course.
The OP even had his phone number on it for goodness sake!!
It gave access to people not qualified to be in there.
I'm astonished that you even questiion that it was an irresponsible action.
Anywhere I worked such an action would lead to instant dismissal.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Cutting off the lock of course.
The OP even had his phone number on it for goodness sake!!
It gave access to people not qualified to be in there.
I'm astonished that you even questiion that it was an irresponsible action.
Anywhere I worked such an action would lead to instant dismissal.

OK, I took the comment as somehow personal. The thread is a month old and I didn't review to find out what you might be referring to. I wouldn't question that. And agreed dismissal is the only answer.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Same, but there is no OSHA allowance for that.

Having just acquired my OSHA 30, I agree, but I have never heard of an incidence where they wrote it up, either. Hopefully they aren't reading this thread and getting ideas.:slaphead:
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
OK, I took the comment as somehow personal. The thread is a month old and I didn't review to find out what you might be referring to. I wouldn't question that. And agreed dismissal is the only answer.
OK too.

Did you like my comment about millwrongs?
:)
 

Johnnybob

Senior Member
Location
Colville, WA
If that is true it is just another example of the unsurprising ridiculousness of our government. Perhaps we should put locks on every panel in every new construction we work on, even when the utility isn't hooked up yet, because you never know, someone may sneak in and turn it on.
I work in a saw mill, and ocasionally we have shut-downs for installation/upgrade of equipment with multiple trades, company employee's and conttractors. There usually is not room for everyone's locks on a bucket/disconnect without using 20 lock-out trees. So in this case, we use a master lock-out box, which means 1 lock goes on the bucket. Key for said lock goes in master box. There is now room for everyone to have they're own lock on it (cuz thats the law!) with or without LOTO trees. If someone needs to cut a lock off, there is a set proceedure that must be followed! A supervisor must be called in. He/she must make every effort (documented of course) to contact the owner of the lock to make sure they are not on site. If they cannot be contacted, a site search must be conducted to ensure they are not on site. Then, after they are absolutely sure the lock owner isn't on site, they can approve the locks removal,. And the lock owner Will attend a LOTO class/refresher when/if they come back to work! That's how it's done here! Is it the law? Not sure, but it works!
 

Johnnybob

Senior Member
Location
Colville, WA
Maybe there is something in OSHA that would permit the "one man in charge" idea, but I have never seen it or heard it talked about in any of the lockout training that I have had.
No, I'm pretty sure the law requires everyone working on a piece of equipment to have they're own locks on said equipment! It's to easy to be in a hurry to recommision something and miss someone in the head count. I've been inside a 20' trimsaw when someone started the saw motors, and its prety scary to hace 11 20" saws start up when you're not expecting it! Kinda makes you believe in following LOTO proceedures:))
 

Johnnybob

Senior Member
Location
Colville, WA
You assign to me, actions that I would not take. If a facility wanted the level that you are asking then as long as they were paying for it, then I would perform it. As to the rest of your statement, it is not on mark. First off OSHA doesn't even require a lock. They require a tag. I am also pretty sure that if you disconnect the leads, then OSHA doesn't require anything. And as to you question "what is to stop..." The entire concept of preforming electrical work and virtually every common sense (which I know isn't necessarily viable) and the rules that must be in place at every industrial facility in regards to performing work. One might as well say that the typical brass LOTO lock is not adequate because a hack saw can easily cut through it and what is to prevent a person from cutting it off when you aren't looking. Or any of hundreds of other overreaching requirements.

If your facility has defined requirements that are part of the bid/pricing documents then I would be the last to refuse to do that for cost plus overhead and profit. Oh, and I am not a foreman for a long time.


https://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_General_Facts/factsheet-lockout-tagout.pdf


Sorry, wrong link:( I think what I was looking for is OSHA title 29, part 1910.147, https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9804
Which does NOT cover construction, by the way!
Just a personal note, there is no such thing as being too careful! No increase in production is worth someones health and welfare.
Also;
There is NO substitute for education of employees for safe working proceedures!
 
Last edited:

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I've met a few of them, sigh, but only a few.

Without going back to the original, IIRC the box was opened to change the phase rotation, something that they should have been able to do at the other end of the feeders, too.
But was that something they were qualified to do, were permitted to do? And leave the panel open?

Bad all round from my POV.
 

Johnnybob

Senior Member
Location
Colville, WA


https://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_General_Facts/factsheet-lockout-tagout.pdf


Sorry, wrong link:( I think what I was looking for is OSHA title 29, part 1910.147, https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9804
Which does NOT cover construction, by the way!
Just a personal note, there is no such thing as being too careful! No increase in production is worth someones health and welfare.
Also;
There is NO substitute for education of employees for safe working proceedures!
This link is to a form for OSHA MINIMAL lock-out proceedures

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9805
 
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