NEC 110.14 and highly stranded wire on oven

[don_resqcapt19]

It is typically AWM, 105C.

And that is typically Class K stranding.

 

[zooby]

I have seen copper foil on generator fine stranded terminations.

also the last replacement "cam-lok" connectors I purchased have the foil with them.

 

[tortuga]

That's not what 110.14 says. It says that for other than Class B and Class C, the connector "shall be identified for the specific conductor class or
classes."

I agree with Larry

To me, this is a non-issue, and I wouldn't bother asking anyone.

I would use regular wire-nuts and simply make good connections.

this only a NEC wording issue.
Its not practical to UL list every type of stranded wire a wirenut can be combined with, and it does appear to be a common practice, many lighting fixtures now only come come with metric wire of a unknown stranding.
my fix would be add an exception
something like
Proposed Exception to 110.14(C):

Exception: Splicing wire connectors, including twist-on and lever-type splicing connectors, identified for use with stranded copper conductors not larger than 10 AWG shall be permitted to splice copper conductors more finely stranded than Class B and Class C, provided the conductors are within the connector’s marked conductor size range.

 

[retirede]

I agree with Larry this is not a practical issue, but a NEC wording issue.
Its not practical to UL list every type of stranded wire a wirenut can be combined with, and it does appear to be a common practice, many lighting fixtures now only come come with metric wire of a unknown stranding.
my fix would be add an exception
something like
Proposed Exception to 110.14(C):

Many lighting fixtures include the wire nuts. I would expect that those wire nuts would be suitable since they’re included with the listed fixture.

 

[tortuga]

Many lighting fixtures include the wire nuts. I would expect that those wire nuts would be suitable since they’re included with the listed fixture.

I have looked into this before and am going to agree with Don here, I am not aware of any wire nut that has been identified for use with finely stranded conductors, even ones that are supplied by manufacturers with a light fixture.

Look at the last part of the parent text of 110.14.

I am not aware of any wire nut that has been identified for use with finely stranded conductors.

 

[retirede]

I have looked into this before and am going to agree with Don here, I am not aware of any wire nut that has been identified for use with finely stranded conductors, even ones that are supplied by manufacturers with a light fixture.

I don’t disagree with that. But supplying wire nuts that are not suitable for use included with a listed fixture shouldn’t happen.

 

[nizak]

Wall ovens and cooktops always come with whips, never terminal blocks.

Wire-nuts may not be listed for the connection but they have been the standard connectors used for 60+ years. I have never run across a problem unless the wrong size connector was used or wires were not stripped long enough.

Kinda like the thread about protecting NM cable where it enters the plastic box and is too close to the face of the stud.

Been doing it for 40+ years with little known adverse consequences.

Maybe the wire nut and finely stranded wire is just another example.

 

[tortuga]

Kinda like the thread about protecting NM cable where it enters the plastic box and is too close to the face of the stud.

Been doing it for 40+ years with little known adverse consequences.

Maybe the wire nut and finely stranded wire is just another example.

ist only been in the NEC since 2011, the proposals that created this limitation stemmed from issues unique to solar photovoltaic systems and other types of splicing wire connectors, not standard wirenuts splicing a 14 AWG solid to a 18AWG Class K stranding fixture wire.

 

[infinity]

Interesting thread yet no one has provided any proof that these oven use conductors with more than 19 strands.

 

[tthh]

Never been a big fan of wire nuts for #8 or #6. Polaris are much nicer and make for a more tidy box. Split bolts are fine too, less expensive, but a little more work than a Polaris.

 

[tajalir]

I don’t disagree with that. But supplying wire nuts that are not suitable for use included with a listed fixture shouldn’t happen.

If the manufacturer is supplying the wire nut, they have tested it with the fixture. If the combination (fixture, wire nut, wire) passed the various UL tests, naturally, that wire nut is suitable - irrespective of its stranding. The package is listed by UL.

 

[tajalir]

Interesting thread yet no one has provided any proof that these oven use conductors with more than 19 strands.

The ovens (and practically every appliance I looked into) use AWM wire. AWM wire is available in various strandings. Some are Class B or C. Some have higher strands. A good place to see them is in units that may be returned to the store. I saw an oven at Home Depot one time sitting on the floor. The customer had returned it, and they had put it there for a discounted sale. Otherwise, unfortunately, they do not let you look at this detail in the appliance before you buy it. Calling the manufacturer is completely useless, as they do not understand what you are talking about. And their installation manuals do not address this detail at all.

 

[retirede]

If the manufacturer is supplying the wire nut, they have tested it with the fixture. If the combination (fixture, wire nut, wire) passed the various UL tests, naturally, that wire nut is suitable - irrespective of its stranding. The package is listed by UL.

That was my point. That’s how it should be.

But I don’t think the listing standard for light fixtures has any criteria or testing method for associated wire connectors.

 

[tajalir]

That was my point. That’s how it should be.

But I don’t think the listing standard for light fixtures has any criteria or testing method for associated wire connectors.

That is interesting. So the package is listed, but the wire nut is not evaluated. It seems that this whole thing is a gaping hole in the coordination between UL and NEC. I am wondering if we can somehow reach the Code Making panel that is responsible for 110.14

 

[curt swartz]

I have never have and never will use the mounting screws provided or the wire connectors supplied with light fixtures. The screws are slightly smaller in diameter than 8/32 so maybe metric and will pull out of many boxes. The wire nuts are usually too small and often done even have a internal metal spring.

 

[curt swartz]

As has been previously stated I think the whole thing is a non issue. The standard testing for wirenuts doesn't include fine stranded wire but that doesn't meat they will not perform fine. Maybe you should contact Ideal so they can color their some of their standard connectors pink and send to UL for testing with fine stranded wire. They will pass with flying colors. Sell them for $5 each.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Never been a big fan of wire nuts for #8 or #6. Polaris are much nicer and make for a more tidy box. Split bolts are fine too, less expensive, but a little more work than a Polaris.

I have the opposite experience and opinion. Polaris connectors in these smaller sizes are often operating near their rated capacity and I have seen them melt/burn down even though they were once properly torqued and installed. Hard to do with a big blue wire nut where the actual wires are mashed into each other rather than relying on the connector itself to carry the current. I will use a wire nut first any time I can for 8s and 6s.

 

[hbiss]

As has been previously stated I think the whole thing is a non issue. The standard testing for wirenuts doesn't include fine stranded wire but that doesn't meat they will not perform fine. Maybe you should contact Ideal so they can color their some of their standard connectors pink and send to UL for testing with fine stranded wire. They will pass with flying colors. Sell them for $5 each.

Has there ever been an issue with wirenuts and fine stranded wire?

That is interesting. So the package is listed, but the wire nut is not evaluated. It seems that this whole thing is a gaping hole in the coordination between UL and NEC. I am wondering if we can somehow reach the Code Making panel that is responsible for 110.14

I think you give too much credit to UL and the NEC. Unless some manufacturer looking to increase profits can convince them that buildings are burning down and lives are being lost because of it, maybe then they will make changes to some future code cycle.

-Hal