randall a
Member
- Location
- Honolulu, HI, USA
Can you review the attached sketch, and let me know if a receptacle required at the location shown? (Though, I do not see any use for a receptacle at this location I believe one is required per NEC)
NEC 210.52(A)(2) Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets -
- Thread starter randall a
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
There is definitely an outlet missing in the drawing, but as long as the doorway is not much more than 3' wide, you could probably substitute an outlet right near the hinge side of the door.
In fact, if you shift all of the receptacle in the room clockwise, starting with a six foot space by the closet and 12 feet between receptacles, you could tuck that last outlet neatly behind the door and not need a larger number than what is in the drawing.
Their positions would not be nearly as useful, but as a exercise it would seem to fit.
It's going to depend a lot on AHJ interpretation. A strict interpretation will require the receptacle.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I agree and will add that it is a great location for plugging in a vacuum cleaner. It will never be blocked by furniture.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Gregg Harris
Senior Member
- Location
- Virginia
- Occupation
- Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
It works first outlet behind door in 2.5 wall second going clockwise moved to 6 instead of 4 etc
- Location
- Massachusetts
The spot in question is surrounded by doors and is larger than 2' that means it must have a receptacle there.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Depends on how you read the section.
I interpret it first as that any space which is broken by a doorway does not count as a wall space for the purpose of the deciding whether the wall space is wider than the threshold of 2 feet. That is, a 23" wall on either side of a doorway would be neither a 46" wide space nor a space of 46" plus the width of the doorway.
I think we agree on that.
The slightly stickier part is whether the receptacle is required to be in the same individual wall space as the point from which you are measuring. If you see that as a requirement (which is quite reasonable), then the receptacle needed for points on the outside closet wall cannot be on the other side of the doorway. :thumbsup:
If the section had said
"...measured horizontally along the floor line from any point in a wall space to a receptacle outlet is more than 1.8 m (6 ft)" instead of
"...measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet", then I would argue harder for my interpretation.
If the code read
"...measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet in that wall space", then I would fold immediately.
The corresponding wording for countertop receptacles implicitly requires that the distance in question be along the same continuous countertop wall but does not say it in so many words.
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- Location
- Massachusetts
Wow ...
Talk about taking the exceedingly simple and complicating the heck out of it.
The rule is to prevent cords across door ways.
Talk about taking the exceedingly simple and complicating the heck out of it.
The rule is to prevent cords across door ways.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
If the closet is built in, using normal wall construction, why couldn't this 2.5' area be considered a hallway?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Wow ...
Talk about taking the exceedingly simple and complicating the heck out of it.
The rule is to prevent cords across door ways.
I agree. A 2.5' section of wall needs a receptacle, as simple as that.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
If so, is it the same hallway as the one on the other side of the door, outside the room?
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
I would say not, a doorway is a common differentiator for hallways. But it makes no difference to my 'brainstorming', does it?
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Nope just the continuing the speculation about what would happen the hallway becomes long enough to require a receptacle. At least you do not have to worry about sides or crossing doorways at that point.
- Location
- Massachusetts
You guys make my head hurt.
brother
Senior Member
The Wall space needs a receptacle, I really don't see how that article can be read any other way.
randall a
Member
- Location
- Honolulu, HI, USA
Checked with AHJ (Inspector) and got his response
Checked with AHJ (Inspector) and got his response
Had to check with AHJ (Inspector)- who said "we do not need a receptacle there". His decision makes a lot sense to me, though I believe the code says that if the wall is 2ft or more, a receptacle is required. I really don't see any point of having a receptacle at this location, other than for plugging in a vaccum cleaner. This may tend to be a common installation question for apartment/ condo projects, which if installed will add some extra costs and bet more times than not, you won't see a receptacle here. I'd also like to think (or argue) that this area could be considered a hallway, but I don't think it could.
The NEC should perhaps clarify this with an example, or maybe someone should ask for an interpretation and the usefulness of a receptacle at a location like this.
Thanks, everyone had some good points.
Checked with AHJ (Inspector) and got his response
Had to check with AHJ (Inspector)- who said "we do not need a receptacle there". His decision makes a lot sense to me, though I believe the code says that if the wall is 2ft or more, a receptacle is required. I really don't see any point of having a receptacle at this location, other than for plugging in a vaccum cleaner. This may tend to be a common installation question for apartment/ condo projects, which if installed will add some extra costs and bet more times than not, you won't see a receptacle here. I'd also like to think (or argue) that this area could be considered a hallway, but I don't think it could.
The NEC should perhaps clarify this with an example, or maybe someone should ask for an interpretation and the usefulness of a receptacle at a location like this.
Thanks, everyone had some good points.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Wow hmy:
Nec requires a receptacle there, period. Whether or not you follow the NEC is another story.
hmy:Nec requires a receptacle there, period. Whether or not you follow the NEC is another story.
JDB3
Senior Member
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
In some areas where I have worked, they have their own code, but have a phase in it that says whichever is stricter. In other words, they may not require it, but the NEC does.
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