NEC 250.52 B metal gas piping systems

[Sberry]

Ever install an extra outlet not required? Do we install code minimums on small welder circuits or measure out every foot allowed for length?

 

[ramsy]

Very true, but that extra bonding is not the responsibility of the electrical contractor...it is the responsibility of the contractor that installed the CSST. That contractor can either install the NFPA 54 required bonding or hire the EC to do it.

Encountering HVAC contractors refusing to warranty residential equipment until client installs appliance-surge protection. Since listed surge-outlet warranty's require whole house surge protection, client end up paying for both, plus any CSST bonding corrections identified by EC, who can't compel HVAC contractor to correct anything without a Red Tag.

 

[ActionDave]

I guess I can spoon feed this.

While in theory this is true I cant recall seeing a compliant install lately involving a dryer . Some cant even use a cord connector let alone wire them right.

Must be a regional thing. Did all the smart and sensible folks move away?

Found an electric water heater 2 days ago not grounded, had a green and a white, both taped off but hooked in the panel.

A 10AWG wire to a gas line isn't going to do anything to make that safer.

Secondly,,, cant see where I said it was a code requirement other than the language that it be grounded for the largest circuit that would potentially energize it. While it is connected by a 15A circuit to the furnace with a 15 wire there are 30 other 20A circuits in the place.

What you said was,

"One I did the insp was a fill in guy just before he became the head nut. Pretty worried about the 4 to the water system but seemed to think the 15A wire to the gas pipe was adequate. It might be an irrational fear but I like the 10 better."

And then went on to clarify,

"This was not with the circuit conductors but a separate bond to the piping."

Lets say we have copper water pipe in a house with 20 and 30 circuits but the feed is plastic so it doesnt have a 4 running to it,,, what wire is required to bond it? Would be upsizing this connection be some kind of violation?

Metal water pipes have different bonding requirements than gas piping.

 

[ActionDave]

Ever install an extra outlet not required? Do we install code minimums on small welder circuits or measure out every foot allowed for length?

I don't know how you would do that. Whatever it is you are trying to say would be easier to understand if what you said made any sense.

 

[Sberry]

It says,,, large enough to handle any faults in the place. Guy uses a better wire and it still isnt right? Show me where it says we have to use a code minimum?

 

[Sberry]

Those are just examples I find on a regular basis including from other trades that do stuff like cut ground wires off or dont bother to connect them. Guy works on a furnace and disconnects something, leaves this steel pipe running around the place floating. While it may "not be my job man" its not a deal breaker while we are doing work to hook a wire to it.

 

[Sberry]

My personal preference is a 10,,, again in case we missed this, didnt say it was a code requirement but I like it as its more robust and fits lugs well. I said that in the first post, included all those elements but we can seem to come up with some logic as to why that is a problem? If I use a 6 to a rod for 100 instead of an 8 is that a problem? I cant see it being argument worthy if I install a wire good for fault from any branch circuit in the house.

 

[Sberry]

Metal water pipes have different bonding requirements than gas piping.

How are the requirements different if its not being used as a grounding electrode?

 

[ActionDave]

My personal prefference is a 10,,, again in case we missed this, didnt say it was a code requirement but I like it as its more robust and fits lugs well.

Okay. Use whatever size wire you want.

I said that in the first post, included all those elements but we can seem to come up with some logic as to why that is a problem?

I have no idea what this means.

 

[ActionDave]

How are the requirements different if its not being used as a grounding electrode?

They are different in sizing and location. Also, the language that allows a gas piping system to be bonded by the circuit that is likely to energize it doesn't apply to water pipes.

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Metal

(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in 250.104(A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3).

(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to any of the following:
(1)Service equipment enclosure
(2)Grounded conductor at the service
(3)Grounding electrode conductor, if of sufficient size
(4)One or more grounding electrodes used, if the grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to the grounding electrode is of sufficient size

The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), 250.64(B), and 250.64(E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.102(C)(1) except that it shall not be required to be larger than 3/0 copper or 250 kcmil aluminum or copper-clad aluminum and except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and 250.104(A)(3).

(B) Other Metal Piping
If installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to any of the following:
(1)Equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system
(2)Service equipment enclosure
(3)Grounded conductor at the service
(4)Grounding electrode conductor, if of sufficient size
(5)One or more grounding electrodes used, if the grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to the grounding electrode is of sufficient size

The bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122, and equipment grounding conductors shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122 using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

 

[Sberry]

So where does any of that say we are not allowed to use a better wire? Or even prohibit another wire along the way?

 

[roger]

So where does any of that say we are not allowed to use a better wire?

You can but it's a waste of materials.

 

[Sberry]

Did I try to argue a point about where to connect the wire? Imply that normal connection with the circuit was not compliant?

 

[roger]

Did I try to argue a point about where to connect the wire? Imply that normal connection with the circuit was not compliant?

Where did anybody say anything about where you want to make the connection? You seem to be arguing that the egc for the circuit likely to energize the piping is not sufficient.

 

[Sberry]

I did not argue that, I even stated so, you posted several paragraphs that still don't point out a code violation in what I do and what skin is if off anyone's here's if we use a few ft of better wire. Point out a thing not legal? We seem capable of digesting every word but have trouble with a single sentence,, where is this a problem?

 

[roger]

It does appear as though there is a reading problem. Go back and read all the posts and show us where someone said it was a code violation for you to waste time and material.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So where does any of that say we are not allowed to use a better wire? Or even prohibit another wire along the way?

What makes the wire better?

 

[Sberry]

A larger conductor is not a better one? Not more durable or subject to less v drop? Why do we upsize egc to uffers?

 

[roger]

A larger conductor is not a better one? Not more durable or subject to less v drop? Why do we upsize egc to uffers?

EGC's don't go to uffers.

 

[ActionDave]

A larger conductor is not a better one? Not more durable or subject to less v drop? Why do we upsize egc to uffers?

Where do you stop? 500MCM is a lot more durable than 10.

Why not size conductors for the job they need to do and not size them based on irrational fears? Just an idea.