NEC wet location.

FionaZuppa said:
I not sure you are correct (and I am open for correction). Drywall is not an acceptable protection material. So if it's drywall then it should be evaluated as if there is no drywall,
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Where did the discussion of drywall come from? Are you reaching for justification of your position?

My point was, if the location is called wet then all of the electrical installed must be suitable for wet locations, the plan inspector cannot say the panel needs to be rainproof but the switch does not.
 
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jim dungar said:
Where did the discussion of drywall come from? Are you reaching for justification of your position?

My point was, if the location is called wet then all of the electrical installed must be suitable for wet locations, the plan inspector cannot say the panel needs to be rainproof but the switch does not.
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An argument was put fwd that a 1 and 3R flush finished with drywall has the same water protections. Not the case.
A 1 flush finished with maybe 1/2ply might have same front door protection as the 3R.
 
"is it a wet location?"

Answers range widely, right here on MH forum. Thank goodness I install RH meters on the walls. LOL. ;)
"It can't be wet if it is typically less than 95% relative humidity, and therefore, not a condensing environment, and not subject to rain."
 
The question was (from MH thread), in an outdoor kitchen that is exposed directly to the weather, is the underneath enclosure wet damp or dry?

rexowner

Look in Article 100, under "Location, Damp" and
"Location, Wet". It sounds like the enclosed storage
area you're talking about falls under Damp. NM cable
isn't allowed in damp or wet locations, so don't think
it matters whether it's damp or wet.
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What exactly makes the enclosed portion "damp"? Just because it has no controlled air? In my outdoor kitchen the underneath will temporarily get near 40%RH but never wet from rain, after that it's 20%RH or less. Seems like a dry location to me.

If controlled air is the requirement, then the NEC code should say so. Makes sense to me.

So maybe interpretation?
 
FionaZuppa said:
An argument was put fwd that a 1 and 3R flush finished with drywall has the same water protections.
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The point I made was: a closed Type 1 door would provide similar protection from  splashing as would a closed Type 3R door. Drywall or flush mounting was not part of my comment.

The bottom part, below energized parts, of a Type 3R enclosure is allowed to contain knockouts and openings the same as a Type 1. Also the definition of a Type 1 enclosure says it protects against indirect  splashing.
 
jim dungar said:
The point I made was: a closed Type 1 door would provide similar protection from  splashing as would a closed Type 3R door. Drywall or flush mounting was not part of my comment.
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I get it, but who evaluates just the door part of an enclosure? Is that something I can argue with an inspector, "the doors are the same in this setup, so........". If it's a wet location and I install a 1 that is flush finished to 3/4ply (10ft of ply in all directions), I am good, using ply gets me around a 3R requirement?
 
FionaZuppa said:
I get it, but who evaluates just the door part of an enclosure? Is that something I can argue with an inspector, "the doors are the same in this setup, so........". If it's a wet location and I install a 1 that is flush finished to 3/4ply (10ft of ply in all directions), I am good, using ply gets me around a 3R requirement?
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No you argue that the listing of a Type 1 enclosure says it is protected against light splashing and the Listing for a type 3R is also only rated for light splashing due to the lower parts of the enclosure being similar in construction.

Also don't forget all of the other equipment and devices also need to conform to the location rating he wants for the panel.

Type 4 enclosures are what is needed it you want watertite.
 
Just a quick update. After I responded to the plan checker with the definitions from the NEC, he went quiet on the issue, no more comments.
 
rcfoolinca said:
Just a quick update. After I responded to the plan checker with the definitions from the NEC, he went quiet on the issue, no more comments.
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So it's not a wet location? Was it documented that way by plan checker, and plans are now ok'd? Going silent is not always a benefit.
 
Jraef said:
... near a bottled water dispenser now potentially a "wet location" that needs special electrical equipment?

Nope.
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You, along with everyone else here is correct. I just wanted to say that water dispensers (typically bottle fill stations or water fountains) do require GFCI. 422.5(A)(2) in the 2020. Not that it modifies the location which I believe is your point. But it does require additional protection for personnel.
 
You did not indicate what type of wall the panel is mounted on. If it were a concrete wall in direct contact with earth ( Definition Location, Wet NEC 2023 Handbook ) Then 404.4(A) Damp or Wet locations Surface-Mounted Switch or Circuit Breaker: “ A surfaced-mounted switch or circuit breaker shall be enclosed in a weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that complies with 312.2.” Because the advice you have been getting is correct there is no specific code references between the hot water tank other than panel clearances, which you have met. And no rules about slop sink other than panel clearances which you have met.
 
Rjryan said:
If it were a concrete wall in direct contact with earth ( Definition Location, Wet NEC 2023 Handbook )
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Did you misread the statement? The code only makes it a wet location, if the enclosure is in concrete that is in direct contact with the earth. This panel is surface mounted and not in the concrete so it is not a wet location. Note that the code is the code and the handbook is just someones interpretation of what the code says. See the disclaimer at the beginning of the handbook.
{quote] Location, Wet. (Wet Location)
A location that is one or more of the following:
  • Unprotected and exposed to weather
  • Subject to saturation with water and other liquids
  • Underground
  • In concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth[/quote]
 
The disclaimer Don mentioned

The commentary and supplementary materials in this
handbook are not a part of the NFPA Document and do not
constitute Formal Interpretations of the NFPA (which can be
obtained only through requests processed by the responsible
technical committees in accordance with the published
procedures of the NFPA). The commentary and supplementary
materials, therefore, solely reflect the personal opinions of the
editor or other contributors and do not necessarily represent the
official position of the NFPA or its technical committees.
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don_resqcapt19 said:
Did you misread the statement? The code only makes it a wet location, if the enclosure is in concrete that is in direct contact with the earth. This panel is surface mounted and not in the concrete so it is not a wet location. Note that the code is the code and the handbook is just someones interpretation of what the code says. See the disclaimer at the beginning of the handbook.
{quote] Location, Wet. (Wet Location)
A location that is one or more of the following:
  • Unprotected and exposed to weather
  • Subject to saturation with water and other liquids
  • Underground
  • In concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth
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[/QUOTE]
Yes, if an electrical panel is installed on a masonry wall that is in direct contact with the earth, it's considered to be in a
wet location according to the National Electrical Code (NEC).
 
roger said:
The disclaimer Don mentioned
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It is not the NEC directly, when no explanation is given in the NEC text it does give relevant insights into what the possible meaning of the NEC, and in most cases it is relevant. Never do I not label it as such, an Explanation of the NEC Handbook.
 
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