Need advice on grounding/sub panel

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Jerrymosier said:
  • The circuit conductors contained in the conduit must be protected by an overcurrent device rated at 20 amperes or less.
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That is not something from the National Electrical Code....it appears to be something from a project specification of facility design document.
 
Will I ask the question because I know, like the Bible nec can be confusing at times and based on interpretation. Sometimes you can ask 2 different guys and get 2 different answers. I had to be sure before I took this further.
like I said before, I would never use the conduit as my EGC even though I bond everything as required. It always meant more to just have the wire than to trust a conduit that disappears in a block wall and comes out 150’ down is properly tightened at every place. Also, a lot of this conduit that disappears in a wall, I’m not 100% sure it doesn’t change to pvc at some point and I’m betting the contractors don’t know either. I guess I should’ve specified that as well.
thanks for the help guys
 
winnie said:
If you have reason to suspect the integrity of the conduit as an EGC you can test the ground impedance.

Jon
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I think I’ll turn it over to administration and let them make that decision. We’re talking a ton of panels here. And honestly I’ve found issues here on campus that wasn’t a matter of interpretation of code, but an outright violation at every turn. No disconnects, 50 amp equipment on 150 amp breakers, so I see things like this and I immediately expect the worst. I can’t imagine the contractors went as far as checking the conduit to assess if it would be a proper ground, they just did it that way regardless to save a dollar.
 
The 20A or less restriction only applies to flexible metallic conduit (FMC). EMT, IMC and rigid have no such limitation. 250.118(5)(b).
 
Jerrymosier said:
I can’t imagine the contractors went as far as checking the conduit to assess if it would be a proper ground, they just did it that way regardless to save a dollar
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If the EMT is properly installed then there is no issue with using it as an EGC. Regarding saving money if the person paying the bill decided that they wanted the installation to cost and code minimum with no wire type EGC's then why would the contractor install them?
 
infinity said:
If the EMT is properly installed then there is no issue with using it as an EGC. Regarding saving money if the person paying the bill decided that they wanted the installation to cost and code minimum with no wire type EGC's then why would the contractor install them?
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You obviously have not worked on many state or government jobs where inspections aren't required. Labor and effort is the only thing at a minimum. What they have paid over the years for contractors to do work and with no quality control and inspections the work isn't code compliant in the least. If you had seen what I've seen, you'd question everything you uncover too. In this case, you are ASSUMING the conduit is exposed and properly installed, and it could very well be, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't stake my name sake and company on making the decision that over 200 feeder lines have all connections tight enough to consider it a proper EGC. Again, as I stated, it may be however these jobs are quoted and completed with minimal labor/material used leaving issues to be dealt with and discovered only after it causes an issue. I would bet my salary this month that raceway was never checked for ground and they assumed it was emt even through the concrete and pulled all the wire and left out the ground.

It may be code to use the conduit as an EGC, but for the small cost of one more wire, I wouldn't think a quality electrician would still be practicing like this. Too many variables that could go wrong and if that raceway is not tightened and there's a short, well there's where people get hurt. All over one more wire. Anyways, that's my 2 cents
 
Jerrymosier said:
In this case, you are ASSUMING the conduit is exposed and properly installed, and it could very well be, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't stake my name sake and company on making the decision that over 200 feeder lines have all connections tight enough to consider it a proper EGC
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I'm not assuming anything, all I'm saying is that the NEC has decided that EMT is suitable as an EGC. There are many electricians who wouldn't install EMT without a wire type EGC installed with the circuit conductors. That's their prerogative. EGC's can also be improperly installed but I agree that a redundant EGC in EMT will cause no harm it's just not required.

The jobs that we do get a wire type EGC when they're either required by the NEC or where the person paying the bill wants them. If they're not paying for them they don't get them.
 
infinity said:
I'm not assuming anything, all I'm saying is that the NEC has decided that EMT is suitable as an EGC. There are many electricians who wouldn't install EMT without a wire type EGC installed with the circuit conductors. That's their prerogative. EGC's can also be improperly installed but I agree that a redundant EGC in EMT will cause no harm it's just not required.

The jobs that we do get a wire type EGC when they're either required by the NEC or where the person paying the bill wants them. If they're not paying for them they don't get them.
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Absolutely. (y)

Tests have shown that EMT out-performs the EGC that would accompany the conductors that would fit within it.
 
The last continuing Ed class I was in spoke on grounding mostly. Using conduit was brought up in that class. Of course it wasn’t discussed as far as where you can do it or not, but he said he highly discouraged counting on the raceway. He gave 2 examples where people were electrocuted recently because it was assumed the conduit would work and something messed up and they lost their life. Now I don’t know about where y’all are, but every electrician I’ve ever worked around always pulls a ground wire. The jobs we did in Carolina required a ground conductor and they had to be made up in the box before passing the wall cover inspection.

This has been a topic the last 2 days with several of the electricians I know and all have said they wouldn’t want to count on that conduit and the connectors holding up over time and still acting as a proper EGC.

Knowing that EMT can be counted as the EGC still does not change the fact I’ll always pull a wire. If a customer doesn’t wanna pay for one wire then I won’t do the job. It just makes more sense to be safe to me
 
Jerrymosier said:
Knowing that EMT can be counted as the EGC still does not change the fact I’ll always pull a wire. If a customer doesn’t wanna pay for one wire then I won’t do the job. It just makes more sense to be safe to me
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That's fine you're certainly free to exceed the minimum NEC requirements. As I said earlier there are many electricians who feel the same way as you.

An inspector would have to approve the EMT without the wire type EGC even if he wouldn't install the raceway without one.
 
infinity said:
That's fine you're certainly free to exceed the minimum NEC requirements. As I said earlier there are many electricians who feel the same way as you.

An inspector would have to approve the EMT without the wire type EGC even if he wouldn't install the raceway without one.
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I agree, but ...
More and more Code-enforcing authorities and consulting
engineers are requiring that a separate
equipment grounding conductor be installed in all
raceways. This ensures effective grounding of the
installation.
 
mtnelect said:
I agree, but ...
More and more Code-enforcing authorities and consulting
engineers are requiring that a separate
equipment grounding conductor be installed in all
raceways. This ensures effective grounding of the
installation.
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Around here code-enforcing authorities cannot make up their own code.
 
Jerrymosier said:
It may be code to use the conduit as an EGC, but for the small cost of one more wire, I wouldn't think a quality electrician would still be practicing like this.
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I feel just the opposite: if an electrician feels they must run a wire for the EGC, they must not be confident in their ability to execute quality pipe work. I know if I would have required the electricians in our plant run a wire, they would have interpreted that a an insult to their skills.
 
mtnelect said:
I agree, but ...
More and more Code-enforcing authorities and consulting
engineers are requiring that a separate
equipment grounding conductor be installed in all
raceways. This ensures effective grounding of the
installation.
Click to expand...
That's fine as long as the cost is included in the contract.
 
infinity said:
Around here code-enforcing authorities cannot make up their own code.
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Every job I’ve been on you’re at the mercy of any inspector. You can stand and argue you have met code but you won’t do nothing but make it tougher on you down the road if you’re known as that guy. If they ask for it or require it, do it. Maybe other stages are a bit more relaxed but I’ve always been under the gun on the jobs I’ve worked at
 
retirede said:
I feel just the opposite: if an electrician feels they must run a wire for the EGC, they must not be confident in their ability to execute quality pipe work. I know if I would have required the electricians in our plant run a wire, they would have interpreted that a an insult to their skills.
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It’s not a confidence issue. Even if I alone ran the conduit myself, I will not lay the safety of people years down the line because I have too much pride to simply pull on more wire in a conduit. I don’t prefer to work for or around people with enough ego to take insult to simply asking to pull a ground wire in whatever conduit they just ran. It’s not about being confident, it’s about going above and beyond to ensure the safety of someone. I don’t believe I would be able to live with myself if someone got hurt because I had too much pride to accept the fact I was asked to pull a ground wire. Besides, most of the helpers out there don’t tighten connectors and couplings correctly sometimes and I sure won’t lay my namesake on my helper forgetting to snug a connector or me not being able to go back and check 600’ of conduit a day to make sure it’s done right.

At the cost of feeders these days, I’m pretty sure a green wire won’t break the jobs budget
 
Jerrymosier said:
Every job I’ve been on you’re at the mercy of any inspector. You can stand and argue you have met code but you won’t do nothing but make it tougher on you down the road if you’re known as that guy. If they ask for it or require it, do it. Maybe other stages are a bit more relaxed but I’ve always been under the gun on the jobs I’ve worked
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Sure, a redundant EGC is nice and often specified in contract documents. Sorry, but I think you are naïve to believe that a contractor should install a wire type EGC in raceway when the code or the contract documents don't require it and he is not being paid for it. On many jobs this could many thousands of $ in cost. In some cases it could even require larger raceways. And, no, you are not at the mercy of an inspector that requires things that are not code required. I've even seen inspectors ask for things that are in fact code violations to do as they request. Any contractor with some miles on him and wants to stay in business will not install things that are not required by code or the contract docs.
 
Jerrymosier said:
Every job I’ve been on you’re at the mercy of any inspector. You can stand and argue you have met code but you won’t do nothing but make it tougher on you down the road if you’re known as that guy. If they ask for it or require it, do it. Maybe other stages are a bit more relaxed but I’ve always been under the gun on the jobs I’ve worked at
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I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you on this. It sets a bad precedent to kowtow on an incorrect ruling.

It's just as wrong for an inspector to fail a compliant installation as it is to pass a non-compliant one.

I have formally challenged a fail four times as a contractor, always civilly, and "won" every time.

I have a good reputation among the inspectors I know. That's the "that guy" I want to be known as.
 
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