What do we need inspectors for? 98% of the time the inspector couldnt spot a violation if it was directly in front of him and furthermore they usually dont know what they are looking at. To top this off they assume no laibility. What is there real worth other then to collect a fee for the local Gov. they are inspecting for>>> What a shame!
Need for inspectors?
- Thread starter boptrop
- Start date
- Status
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Need for inspectors?
WOW!
WOW!
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Need for inspectors?
Most of the inspector I meet are quite good, I for one am very glad I live in an inspection state.
They are not there to take liability for others poor wiring, would you?
Most of the inspector I meet are quite good, I for one am very glad I live in an inspection state.
They are not there to take liability for others poor wiring, would you?
Ed MacLaren
Senior Member
Re: Need for inspectors?
Where I live the inspection is done on a spot-check system. We never know for sure whether the job is actually going to be looked at, but must assume that it might.
There are certain contractors who will do a safe and legal job, whether it is inspected or not. In other words, they are not doing quality work to please the inspectors.
The Inspection Dept. can then spend their time and resources on the "others"
Ed
Where I live the inspection is done on a spot-check system. We never know for sure whether the job is actually going to be looked at, but must assume that it might.
There are certain contractors who will do a safe and legal job, whether it is inspected or not. In other words, they are not doing quality work to please the inspectors.
The Inspection Dept. can then spend their time and resources on the "others"
Ed
Re: Need for inspectors?
beebop, as an inspector, ex-electrician, i will clarify something for you. It isn't for YOUR benefit. It's for the benefit of the jurisdiction that you are working in. That you are unable to perceive a benefit is of little merit, importance, or consequence.
My experience of the construction industry has had me on both sides. If there weren't so many contractors trying to get away with something, there wouldn't be a need for inspectors.
Sure, there are incompetent inspectors, but I bet you would be a lot happier with them than if they were really very, very good, caught all the little things that are on the edge. You would be begging for mercy as inspectors took a few hours to count every box fill, measured support, asked for 25 ohm test for ground rods, got picky about clearances and refused local rules that bend the NEC. There are almost always things that are a little too close to minimums.
Most guys are ex-construction workers. although there is a whole new breed of jc const tech classes. Most are not paid as much as prevailing wages until they have several years experience.
Sure some are .......s, but it looks like your attitude sure accentuates whatever problems you have with them.
paul :roll:
beebop, as an inspector, ex-electrician, i will clarify something for you. It isn't for YOUR benefit. It's for the benefit of the jurisdiction that you are working in. That you are unable to perceive a benefit is of little merit, importance, or consequence.
My experience of the construction industry has had me on both sides. If there weren't so many contractors trying to get away with something, there wouldn't be a need for inspectors.
Sure, there are incompetent inspectors, but I bet you would be a lot happier with them than if they were really very, very good, caught all the little things that are on the edge. You would be begging for mercy as inspectors took a few hours to count every box fill, measured support, asked for 25 ohm test for ground rods, got picky about clearances and refused local rules that bend the NEC. There are almost always things that are a little too close to minimums.
Most guys are ex-construction workers. although there is a whole new breed of jc const tech classes. Most are not paid as much as prevailing wages until they have several years experience.
Sure some are .......s, but it looks like your attitude sure accentuates whatever problems you have with them.
paul :roll:
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Need for inspectors?
Paul thats four in as many days.
Bob
Paul thats four in as many days.
Bob
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Need for inspectors?
My electrical career has spanned the IBEW apprentiship, journeyman, foreman, general foreman, to ownership and operator of my own electrical contracting firm.
During that time period, I educated myself as best as possible with a lot of help. I belong to all kinds of Associations and spend a lot of my personal time trying to help our industry (because I love the industry). I thought I had a pretty good idea of what the inspection process really was/is.
Now as an owner of an inspection company and also making inspections, my eyes have really been opened wide .
Both sides of the fence need change - inspectors and contractors/electricians.
Don't get me wrong, there are an abundance of excellent contractors/electricians. But there is a growing faction of poor contractors/electricians(?)/and horde who do electrical work who have absolutely no clue, except they can make money doing what they call electrical work.
I have a saying that one can go to the "bees nest" (big box stores) and watch the "bees" leaving the nest all day long - with all kinds of electrical items.
I personally think the inspection side of the industry is going to turn around before the installation end of the business, at least the area I work in. The Municipalities are really putting pressure on us to educate and get all of the proper certifications - and consistancy in inspections from one inspector to the next... FINALLY! I get calls every week about it, they want time frames, etc...
So go ahead and pick on inspectors, just don't pick on all inspectors
Pierre
My electrical career has spanned the IBEW apprentiship, journeyman, foreman, general foreman, to ownership and operator of my own electrical contracting firm.
During that time period, I educated myself as best as possible with a lot of help. I belong to all kinds of Associations and spend a lot of my personal time trying to help our industry (because I love the industry). I thought I had a pretty good idea of what the inspection process really was/is.
Now as an owner of an inspection company and also making inspections, my eyes have really been opened wide
.Both sides of the fence need change - inspectors and contractors/electricians.
Don't get me wrong, there are an abundance of excellent contractors/electricians. But there is a growing faction of poor contractors/electricians(?)/and horde who do electrical work who have absolutely no clue, except they can make money doing what they call electrical work.
I have a saying that one can go to the "bees nest" (big box stores) and watch the "bees" leaving the nest all day long - with all kinds of electrical items.
I personally think the inspection side of the industry is going to turn around before the installation end of the business, at least the area I work in. The Municipalities are really putting pressure on us to educate and get all of the proper certifications - and consistancy in inspections from one inspector to the next... FINALLY! I get calls every week about it, they want time frames, etc...
So go ahead and pick on inspectors, just don't pick on all inspectors
Pierre
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Need for inspectors?
I'm also glad I live in an inspection state. State law here requires inspections for everything except swapping out a bad switch or receptacle.
When I see unlicensed people advertising that they are available for hire to do electrical work, that tells me that there's probably bad work being done. And a lot of my business involves fixing others' shoddy work, often done by people who neglected to pull permits. A lot of it is so bad that a first-year apprentice would catch it.
And inspectors here aren't just ex-construction workers or people who took a few courses at community college. State law requires all inspectors to hold at least a journeyman's electrical license. Where I live, they won't even consider hiring someone to be an inspector unless the person has at least four years of licensed experience.
The inspectors I've dealt with are pretty sharp, and I've learned a thing or two about the code from them. Recently one inspector informed me of a requirement that I thought was bogus, but sure enough, I combed through the code and found out he was right. Glad I didn't argue with him.
I'm also glad I live in an inspection state. State law here requires inspections for everything except swapping out a bad switch or receptacle.
When I see unlicensed people advertising that they are available for hire to do electrical work, that tells me that there's probably bad work being done. And a lot of my business involves fixing others' shoddy work, often done by people who neglected to pull permits. A lot of it is so bad that a first-year apprentice would catch it.
And inspectors here aren't just ex-construction workers or people who took a few courses at community college. State law requires all inspectors to hold at least a journeyman's electrical license. Where I live, they won't even consider hiring someone to be an inspector unless the person has at least four years of licensed experience.
The inspectors I've dealt with are pretty sharp, and I've learned a thing or two about the code from them. Recently one inspector informed me of a requirement that I thought was bogus, but sure enough, I combed through the code and found out he was right. Glad I didn't argue with him.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Need for inspectors?
Boptrop, You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I can assure you that you are in the minority, not only in this forum, but in general. If we all lived in your world with electrical work being done without an independent third party inspection, think about the level of competition you would have. It would be like having a basketball game without referees - nothing more than a school yard game between "shirts" and "skins" with fouls and various other infractions being committed without penalty. The level of bootleg and shoddy work would increase tenfold and your competition would be fierce. Personally, I'd rather be among the elite and take the high road by having my work inspected.
Although inspectors don't take on any liability for your work, they do provide a level of assurance that the work you have done meets an accepted level of competency, unlike the electricians in your world who would merely provide a "tail light" warranty. If the inspectors in your area are missing 98% of the violations (according to your calculations) then there is a need for both you and them be become better educated in order to bring your level of work up to a higher standard.
Most inspectors in my area know (as soon as they walk onto a job site) whether I have been on the job or whether I sent a helper to do the work. I've had some inspectors that have become familiar with my work, come onto the job, take a quick look around, chat for a few minutes and put the green sticker on the panel (I sometimes don't know whether to take that as a compliment or an insult). Then again, I've had others make a list of some 20 defects that they've considered code violations and forced me to correct. Some I've corrected without any complaint and some I've researched and proved that I was not in violation. Believe me, they respect you more when you can prove you're right.
Boptrop, You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I can assure you that you are in the minority, not only in this forum, but in general. If we all lived in your world with electrical work being done without an independent third party inspection, think about the level of competition you would have. It would be like having a basketball game without referees - nothing more than a school yard game between "shirts" and "skins" with fouls and various other infractions being committed without penalty. The level of bootleg and shoddy work would increase tenfold and your competition would be fierce. Personally, I'd rather be among the elite and take the high road by having my work inspected.
Although inspectors don't take on any liability for your work, they do provide a level of assurance that the work you have done meets an accepted level of competency, unlike the electricians in your world who would merely provide a "tail light" warranty. If the inspectors in your area are missing 98% of the violations (according to your calculations) then there is a need for both you and them be become better educated in order to bring your level of work up to a higher standard.
Most inspectors in my area know (as soon as they walk onto a job site) whether I have been on the job or whether I sent a helper to do the work. I've had some inspectors that have become familiar with my work, come onto the job, take a quick look around, chat for a few minutes and put the green sticker on the panel (I sometimes don't know whether to take that as a compliment or an insult). Then again, I've had others make a list of some 20 defects that they've considered code violations and forced me to correct. Some I've corrected without any complaint and some I've researched and proved that I was not in violation. Believe me, they respect you more when you can prove you're right.
Re: Need for inspectors?
Boptrop sir,
If not happy with the structure of your Inspection processes in your area.Don't be a critic.Get out, change and become a part of it. These guys do have a very diverse job,with a human factor just like us in field.It's just not in their job desription to arrive on-site,jump from truck to deliver a punch-list to site Electrician. That is in fact, our role in job description sir... You really,thinking that they should somehow be responsible for our mistakes in field wiring and execution of our own duties?
If you do find one that goes beyond the first violation found,and doesn't head to the truck then. And still stays with you to point out other violations found. He might be doing you a favor sir.Electrical Inspectors don't have to, or in a requirement of,the making of punch-list for us in field. Not in there job description of duties, beleive it or not..
[ February 14, 2005, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
Boptrop sir,
If not happy with the structure of your Inspection processes in your area.Don't be a critic.Get out, change and become a part of it. These guys do have a very diverse job,with a human factor just like us in field.It's just not in their job desription to arrive on-site,jump from truck to deliver a punch-list to site Electrician. That is in fact, our role in job description sir... You really,thinking that they should somehow be responsible for our mistakes in field wiring and execution of our own duties?
If you do find one that goes beyond the first violation found,and doesn't head to the truck then. And still stays with you to point out other violations found. He might be doing you a favor sir.Electrical Inspectors don't have to, or in a requirement of,the making of punch-list for us in field. Not in there job description of duties, beleive it or not..
[ February 14, 2005, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Need for inspectors?
All of my anti inspector posts aside I think there is certainly a need for good inspectors. I know guys who will try to dance around the "Rules" even with inspectors. I could only imagine if there were none. In my day to day observations of life I think there are just as many (or more) people that would "cheat" when presented with the opportunity that would not. Sit at an intersection for a few hours and see what I mean. Notice I said "Good" inspectors. The rest can go poop in a hat.
All of my anti inspector posts aside
I think there is certainly a need for good inspectors. I know guys who will try to dance around the "Rules" even with inspectors. I could only imagine if there were none. In my day to day observations of life I think there are just as many (or more) people that would "cheat" when presented with the opportunity that would not. Sit at an intersection for a few hours and see what I mean. Notice I said "Good" inspectors. The rest can go poop in a hat. benfranklin
Member
Re: Need for inspectors?
I explain to my students all the time that the purpose of taking out (pulling) a permit and having your work inspected is a consumer protection issue. Government has an obligation to see to it that all work is done in compliance with the code. As to whether or not inspections would be required in all circumstances is best left to policy makers. For instance, utilities govern themselves and have their own code for work under their exclusive control. Inspectors, like all electrical industry personnel, have an obligation to keep their knowledge up to date and to be unbiased in all inspections. Just like electricians (humans) will cheat, so will inspectors when it comes to doing a thourough inspection. By far, my experiences with inspectors today is much better then it was twenty five years ago due to better education and more knowledge of the code. Still however, inspectors need to be like teachers and explain when they find a code violation, to the electrician who may not understand why something did not pass inspection. Of course it the inspector does not have a current knowledge of the code and only inspects based on experience because it is the way he learned, then there will be issues and misunderstandings. I once overheard an inspector whom I knew well enough and had many prior experiences with, telling the GC's super that he "was going to shut the job down" because in his interpretation the building (a nursing home)was a hospital and he was not going to allow the underground feeders to be installed in PVC Conduits! He did not know that I was around the corner at the time. When I approached him he changed his tune and realized that he had no claim with regards to us the contractor as I explained that the project was engineered and that if he disagreed with the design he should take it up with the engineer who stamped the drawings. In any event, his approach was to bark and cause hard feelings with the general contractor without merit. Many times, the issues come down to personality,and control and not understanding the job of being a wiring inspector.
I explain to my students all the time that the purpose of taking out (pulling) a permit and having your work inspected is a consumer protection issue. Government has an obligation to see to it that all work is done in compliance with the code. As to whether or not inspections would be required in all circumstances is best left to policy makers. For instance, utilities govern themselves and have their own code for work under their exclusive control. Inspectors, like all electrical industry personnel, have an obligation to keep their knowledge up to date and to be unbiased in all inspections. Just like electricians (humans) will cheat, so will inspectors when it comes to doing a thourough inspection. By far, my experiences with inspectors today is much better then it was twenty five years ago due to better education and more knowledge of the code. Still however, inspectors need to be like teachers and explain when they find a code violation, to the electrician who may not understand why something did not pass inspection. Of course it the inspector does not have a current knowledge of the code and only inspects based on experience because it is the way he learned, then there will be issues and misunderstandings. I once overheard an inspector whom I knew well enough and had many prior experiences with, telling the GC's super that he "was going to shut the job down" because in his interpretation the building (a nursing home)was a hospital and he was not going to allow the underground feeders to be installed in PVC Conduits! He did not know that I was around the corner at the time. When I approached him he changed his tune and realized that he had no claim with regards to us the contractor as I explained that the project was engineered and that if he disagreed with the design he should take it up with the engineer who stamped the drawings. In any event, his approach was to bark and cause hard feelings with the general contractor without merit. Many times, the issues come down to personality,and control and not understanding the job of being a wiring inspector.
Re: Need for inspectors?
Hey buddy...get a cup a coffee and cool it!
Sounds like you had a bad run in with ONE inspector. I do agree there are some good and some not so good. The majority I have dealt with in the last 30 yrs were very knowledgable. We exchanged ideas, discussed the different applications of the code, mad concessions, and even ate crow when either of us were wrong.
I am glad I am in an inspection area. Makes the customer feel safer and helps keep "pickup truck electricians" out of our area!
Hey buddy...get a cup a coffee and cool it!
Sounds like you had a bad run in with ONE inspector. I do agree there are some good and some not so good. The majority I have dealt with in the last 30 yrs were very knowledgable. We exchanged ideas, discussed the different applications of the code, mad concessions, and even ate crow when either of us were wrong.
I am glad I am in an inspection area. Makes the customer feel safer and helps keep "pickup truck electricians" out of our area!
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Need for inspectors?
After a little more thought about the inspectors I have dealt with over the last few years I have to say most, not all but unfortunately a fair majority, are questionable at best. In MA it is not what you know but who you know that gets you a ticket to feed at the public trough. :roll:
After a little more thought about the inspectors I have dealt with over the last few years I have to say most, not all but unfortunately a fair majority, are questionable at best. In MA it is not what you know but who you know that gets you a ticket to feed at the public trough. :roll:
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Need for inspectors?
As I travel down the road every day and watch cars going over the posted speed, passing with the yellow on their side and worse of all passing a stopped school bus, I can?t help but wonder why we have law enforcement, after all they aren?t stopping all these people.
Did that sound silly? So does trashing the inspectors whether or not they are good or bad. I love my local inspectors (except when they turn me down).
As I travel down the road every day and watch cars going over the posted speed, passing with the yellow on their side and worse of all passing a stopped school bus, I can?t help but wonder why we have law enforcement, after all they aren?t stopping all these people.
Did that sound silly? So does trashing the inspectors whether or not they are good or bad. I love my local inspectors (except when they turn me down).
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Need for inspectors?
In my neck of the woods, I was told by people who were in the trade, that at one time the primary purpose of inspection was to hassle DIYers and non-union ECs. I have heard enough stories to beleive it probably was true at one time. I believe that situation has changed though.
It seems entirely plausible to me that there is a certain amount of self interest going on, beyond the public safety aspects. You have probably figured out I am not a big fan of government as supernnanny on every issue.
OTOH, it seems to me there is some legitimate interest in enforcing some minimal level of safe construction. After all, its a big difference if only your own property is at risk, as it might be on an isolated rural farm. When you have 10,000 living or working in a building, the risks to other people may well out weigh the right to do as you please with your own place.
In my neck of the woods, I was told by people who were in the trade, that at one time the primary purpose of inspection was to hassle DIYers and non-union ECs. I have heard enough stories to beleive it probably was true at one time. I believe that situation has changed though.
It seems entirely plausible to me that there is a certain amount of self interest going on, beyond the public safety aspects. You have probably figured out I am not a big fan of government as supernnanny on every issue.
OTOH, it seems to me there is some legitimate interest in enforcing some minimal level of safe construction. After all, its a big difference if only your own property is at risk, as it might be on an isolated rural farm. When you have 10,000 living or working in a building, the risks to other people may well out weigh the right to do as you please with your own place.
Re: Need for inspectors?
He would inspect a job and tell us the torque was wrong on the breakers. reason: he tightened the screws!
He would snap off a screw on an entrance LB! He was checking to see if the insulation was scraped.
He got shocked one time because he was sticking his hands in the wrong place--you guessed it...we failed that inspection. He made up something about a loose wire in the panel!
He inspected a job I did. He opened an old 4 square box and said there were too many wires in it. (I did not open this box or work on it) So how did he know? HE overfilled the box when he was an apprentice!!!
Anyways, he retired and life goes on. One of the not so good inspectors!
We challenged the chief inspector on this. We called him on the carpet, we checked the city records and found we had pulled more permits than any other three contractors put together. we asked him to meet us for lunch and to bring his attorney if he so desired because we were bring ours. He declined and stopped hassling us for little stuff.
He would inspect a job and tell us the torque was wrong on the breakers. reason: he tightened the screws!
He would snap off a screw on an entrance LB! He was checking to see if the insulation was scraped.
He got shocked one time because he was sticking his hands in the wrong place--you guessed it...we failed that inspection. He made up something about a loose wire in the panel!
He inspected a job I did. He opened an old 4 square box and said there were too many wires in it. (I did not open this box or work on it) So how did he know? HE overfilled the box when he was an apprentice!!!
Anyways, he retired and life goes on. One of the not so good inspectors!
Re: Need for inspectors?
Sorry about the sharp comments i made about inspectors...I was just mentioning most of the ones I have seen in action. Yes there are those who are "the glory of there times and the honor of there generations" and there are those that indifferently check collect. It is saddening that a 20 year wireman/electrician/journeyman can so much as set up an "objectionable current" situation in a pannel or some other obvious violation and the inspector looks at it and says "here is your permit"! You would hope that the inspector would correct it as the journeyman rejects doing it the right way. If someone got shocked whose fault would it be?
Have you ever seen 3 tiers of conduit stacked with stand off strap to pipe to stand off strap to pipe to stand off strap so stand off strap to pipe to wall or MC cable bundled and tie wraped to pipe?.....Inspector says "heres your permit"......
[ February 14, 2005, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: boptrop ]
Sorry about the sharp comments i made about inspectors...I was just mentioning most of the ones I have seen in action. Yes there are those who are "the glory of there times and the honor of there generations" and there are those that indifferently check collect. It is saddening that a 20 year wireman/electrician/journeyman can so much as set up an "objectionable current" situation in a pannel or some other obvious violation and the inspector looks at it and says "here is your permit"! You would hope that the inspector would correct it as the journeyman rejects doing it the right way. If someone got shocked whose fault would it be?
Have you ever seen 3 tiers of conduit stacked with stand off strap to pipe to stand off strap to pipe to stand off strap so stand off strap to pipe to wall or MC cable bundled and tie wraped to pipe?.....Inspector says "heres your permit"......
[ February 14, 2005, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: boptrop ]
southernboys
Senior Member
Re: Need for inspectors?
i also am sure there are good inspectors out there but unfortunately they are not in the southern part of alabama. how do you fail a company on an inspection when you call for a roughin and he grades you on a final with no drywall on the walls or how do you tell a master electrician to put a disconect on the line side of the meter?
i also am sure there are good inspectors out there but unfortunately they are not in the southern part of alabama. how do you fail a company on an inspection when you call for a roughin and he grades you on a final with no drywall on the walls or how do you tell a master electrician to put a disconect on the line side of the meter?
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Need for inspectors?
Try looking at the workmanship in states that have no inspections.I for one see it as a way to keep wages respectable.If an inspector can site a violation backed with code number then he did his job.Should it ever get to a point where they pass 99% of the jobs then maybe we could do without them.Sure they are annoying if they flunk us.Learn from it and don't let it happen again.
Try looking at the workmanship in states that have no inspections.I for one see it as a way to keep wages respectable.If an inspector can site a violation backed with code number then he did his job.Should it ever get to a point where they pass 99% of the jobs then maybe we could do without them.Sure they are annoying if they flunk us.Learn from it and don't let it happen again.
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