Need some feedback please

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Alwayslearningelec

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Estimator
Have a job with a lot of RMC Al 4" pipe. I think the guys are off to a bad start with production units and this could seriously hurt the company(like put us out) as there is over 25,000' of this conduit.

Just want to give an example of one of the runs installed so far. I understand it's tough to give feedback withoout knowing some of the particulars regarding the install but I really need some sort of feedback. The owners did agree on the labor units I used so that's that. THey have never had a job nearly this big and I really don't think they have guys that have a lot of experiecne with this big conduit. Anyway here it goes.

  • Ceiling are open and at 25-30'
  • Working of lifts.
  • Floors are opend and clear.
  • Material, bending equipment, threaders etc. I assume are close to install area. THey should be right???
  • (4) 100' runs of 4" RMC AL on same 2-1/2' wide trapeze racks.
  • Racks are mounts to steel with beam clamps.
  • Run has (4) 90 degree turns and hits a pull box. At this point it's not terminating yet at the start/finish location.
So just accounting for installing the the conduits( incl. elbows, cut and thread, straps etc.) and the racks. Should (2) men be able to do this in (2) weeks?

On a side note. Prefab elebow would obviously make the install longer??? What would determine( remeber there is a lot of this conduit) whether they should mostly be using factory elbows or being. The job is anywhere from 4 to 14 sets of conduits in a rack.

Thank you very much. Need your help.
 
Dsg319 said:
Me personally I would want at least a third hand to run materials and help out etc.
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Agree. This takes two guys in the lift and one on the ground. If nothing else, what if the lift craps out and you need someone to get it down manually using the emergency valves?
 
Alwayslearningelec said:
Have a job with a lot of RMC Al 4" pipe. I think the guys are off to a bad start with production units and this could seriously hurt the company(like put us out) as there is over 25,000' of this conduit.

Just want to give an example of one of the runs installed so far. I understand it's tough to give feedback withoout knowing some of the particulars regarding the install but I really need some sort of feedback. The owners did agree on the labor units I used so that's that. THey have never had a job nearly this big and I really don't think they have guys that have a lot of experiecne with this big conduit. Anyway here it goes.

  • Ceiling are open and at 25-30'
  • Working of lifts.
  • Floors are opend and clear.
  • Material, bending equipment, threaders etc. I assume are close to install area. THey should be right???
  • (4) 100' runs of 4" RMC AL on same 2-1/2' wide trapeze racks.
  • Racks are mounts to steel with beam clamps.
  • Run has (4) 90 degree turns and hits a pull box. At this point it's not terminating yet at the start/finish location.
So just accounting for installing the the conduits( incl. elbows, cut and thread, straps etc.) and the racks. Should (2) men be able to do this in (2) weeks?

On a side note. Prefab elebow would obviously make the install longer??? What would determine( remeber there is a lot of this conduit) whether they should mostly be using factory elbows or being. The job is anywhere from 4 to 14 sets of conduits in a rack.

Thank you very much. Need your help.
Click to expand...
This is a lot bigger job that I deal with, but I'll stick out my neck and learn from how I'll get shot down. Here's my thoughts:

That's 4 sticks a day. Seems doable to me.

How is the guys' attitude, especially with their boss?

What they don't know now, they will after 2,500 sticks!

With 4" conduit, I think factory elbows are a good choice for the runs with fewer sets. (Much easier to handle in the lift.) But with more sets, multi-shot bends will look a LOT better. Probably need unions.
 
Alwayslearningelec said:
Have a job with a lot of RMC Al 4" pipe. I think the guys are off to a bad start with production units and this could seriously hurt the company(like put us out) as there is over 25,000' of this conduit.

Just want to give an example of one of the runs installed so far. I understand it's tough to give feedback withoout knowing some of the particulars regarding the install but I really need some sort of feedback. The owners did agree on the labor units I used so that's that. THey have never had a job nearly this big and I really don't think they have guys that have a lot of experiecne with this big conduit. Anyway here it goes.

  • Ceiling are open and at 25-30'
  • Working of lifts.
  • Floors are opend and clear.
  • Material, bending equipment, threaders etc. I assume are close to install area. THey should be right???
  • (4) 100' runs of 4" RMC AL on same 2-1/2' wide trapeze racks.
  • Racks are mounts to steel with beam clamps.
  • Run has (4) 90 degree turns and hits a pull box. At this point it's not terminating yet at the start/finish location.
So just accounting for installing the the conduits( incl. elbows, cut and thread, straps etc.) and the racks. Should (2) men be able to do this in (2) weeks?

On a side note. Prefab elebow would obviously make the install longer??? What would determine( remeber there is a lot of this conduit) whether they should mostly be using factory elbows or being. The job is anywhere from 4 to 14 sets of conduits in a rack.

Thank you very much. Need your help.
Click to expand...
Taking jobs much larger than a contractor has done before is one of the most common reasons for a small electrical contractor to fail. Also using electricians not experienced in the type of work that they are doing could easily increase the labor hours by 50% to 100% or even more.

As I recall this is an airport job and I am sure there are lots of rules and regulations that apply to this job that your contractor has never seen before.
Are safe and hot work permits required, and if so how long does it take to get those? On a lot of my jobs, I added one hour per day per man just to get the required permit sign offs.

Even things like where you can set up to cut and bend may be limited and restricted on large project. That type of thing needs to be determined prior to the bid.

I would probably be looking at 5 to 6 man weeks, even with experienced workers.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Taking jobs much larger than a contractor has done before is one of the most common reasons for a small electrical contractor to fail. Also using electricians not experienced in the type of work that they are doing could easily increase the labor hours by 50% to 100% or even more.

As I recall this is an airport job and I am sure there are lots of rules and regulations that apply to this job that your contractor has never seen before.
Are safe and hot work permits required, and if so how long does it take to get those? On a lot of my jobs, I added one hour per day per man just to get the required permit sign offs.

Even things like where you can set up to cut and bend may be limited and restricted on large project. That type of thing needs to be determined prior to the bid.

I would probably be looking at 5 to 6 man weeks, even with experienced workers.
Click to expand...
Wow 5 to 6 weeks for that run with 3 men? We are in a huge amount of trouble? If you mean a total of 200 hours( 5- 40 hour weeks) then that's a lot different. That would be 200 hours for the 400'. Divide that by 4 and it's 50 per hundred. We bid it at 43 hours per hundred. Still a ways off what you think.
 
TwoBlocked said:
This is a lot bigger job that I deal with, but I'll stick out my neck and learn from how I'll get shot down. Here's my thoughts:

That's 4 sticks a day. Seems doable to me.

How is the guys' attitude, especially with their boss?

What they don't know now, they will after 2,500 sticks!

With 4" conduit, I think factory elbows are a good choice for the runs with fewer sets. (Much easier to handle in the lift.) But with more sets, multi-shot bends will look a LOT better. Probably need unions.
Click to expand...
Unions for???
 
I don't understand. There's 25,000' yet the concern is whether two men can install 400' in two weeks.

Another question, are the trapeze already in place?

As Don mentioned, if this is an airport project there will be other things (security for one) that may slow productivity down
 
Alwayslearningelec said:
Wow 5 to 6 weeks for that run with 3 men? We are in a huge amount of trouble? If you mean a total of 200 hours( 5- 40 hour weeks) then that's a lot different. That would be 200 hours for the 400'. Divide that by 4 and it's 50 per hundred. We bid it at 43 hours per hundred. Still a ways off what you think.
Click to expand...
I said 5 to 6 man weeks. Two guys for 2 weeks is 4 man weeks.
 
Alwayslearningelec said:
If it does take that long we're going to lose a lot of money. With non productive labor and delivery time for the work ...have a total of 50 hours per hundred feet.
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You can't do anything about the materials or the the bid price. That leaves the labor. Think efficiency. Someone should take a good look at the situation. The guys might be great, but need a good boss. Or they might be good workers, but disgusted with the equipment. Or bring in some guys with more experience. Looks like you need 2 more guys for the sake of efficiency anyway. Climbing in and out of a lift all day can really wear you down. DAMHIK!

But are you considering your place in all this? You are the estimator. I take it you did your best. Unless you are now responsibly for making the project fit the estimate (good luck with that!) it's time for the installation crew to do their best.

FWIW, few things piss me off more than having someone hound me about how long a job was estimated for. So like if I can do it quicker, I should slow down? Or if I can't do a good job in the allotted time, I should do a crappy job? How about I just stop part way through because that is all the time estimated for? Or does it mean I should come in off the clock to finish the job on my own time? See what I mean?

OTOH, much better if someone comes in and sincerely askes how it's going, maybe bring coffee and donuts mid-morning. (DON'T show up at the beginning of the day, as if you are checking if we are coming late, or the end of the day, checking if we are leaving early.) If real interest is shown in what problems and frustration we might be experiencing THEN something positive might be done, like bring in some fans or renting a proper lift, for example. (Got a boss right now that if I said "Sure would be nice to have better lighting." he would reply "Oh, contact so and so and see if they can do something about it." And like who is so and so, what do they do, how would I contact them, and WTF don't YOU? So we just never ask him for anything...) There's a YUGE difference between coming in to see what the WORKERS should be doing differently and the BOSSES coming in to see what THEY can do differently.

Point is, if labor is the snag HELP THEM!

OK, rant over. :)
 
Not asking you to post any numbers here but this had to be a formal bid opening. How close were you to the next low bidder and were the others somewhat grouped together? That won't help but might let you know if you were in the ball park with your number.
 
roger said:
Not asking you to post any numbers here but this had to be a formal bid opening. How close were you to the next low bidder and were the others somewhat grouped together? That won't help but might let you know if you were in the ball park with your number.
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Usually I would but not in this situation.
 
I'm not trying to shift any blame here but when I was done with all the numbers prior to submitting our price and during the review I told the the owners he's are my labor units per hundred all in for the conduit, supports and fittings. I told them my first nightmare stories about production at the airports wasn't really sure if these labor units would be good or not there.
 
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