Neutral required in switch box?

[DaveTap]

Hi guys. I'm working a job where the inspector claims NEC requires a neutral conductor in every box even if its only a switch in a box on a dead end run. He hasn't given me the code reference yet but I'm wondering if anyone's ever heard of this before.:?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you are under the 2011 then the inspector is correct but there are some exceptions. Read art 404.2(C)

 

[jwelectric]

404.2 Switch Connections. See related UL

(A)
Three-Way and Four-Way Switches.
Three-way and four-way switches shall be wired so that all switching is done
only in the ungrounded circuit conductor. Where in metal raceways or
metal-armored cables, wiring between switches and outlets shall be in accordance
with 300.20(A).



Exception: Switch loops shall not require a
grounded conductor.

 

[DaveTap]

Thanks Dennis, but in this case the inspector was wrong... the exception applies. Thanks for the tip... I was looking all over for that code reference, guess its time to buy the 2011 code book.

 

[donselec]

404.2(A), does this apply to all 3-way and 4-way switches, or just where using metal raceways or metal-armored cables? A little confusing to me too. Also see 404.2(C). I think 300.20(A) only refers to avoid induction by grouping conductors in the raceway and not about having the neutral at the switch. Just wondering.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

404.2(A), does this apply to all 3-way and 4-way switches, or just where using metal raceways or metal-armored cables? A little confusing to me too. Also see 404.2(C). I think 300.20(A) only refers to avoid induction by grouping conductors in the raceway and not about having the neutral at the switch. Just wondering.

It applies to all switches. I believe Massachusettes passed an amendment that allows for just one 3 way to comply with 404.2(C)

 

[donselec]

It applies to all switches. I believe Massachusettes passed an amendment that allows for just one 3 way to comply with 404.2(C)

I agree that 404.2(A) applies to all 3-way & 4-ways, but then what about 404.2(C)? They seem to conflict. I never noticed that before and haven't run into any conflicts in the field yet. Do 3-ways require a neutral at the switch or not? I'll keep studying on it too.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

404.2(C) has no exceptions for 3 ways so a neutral is required at all switches. The reason is because of the high use of timers, motion sensors, occupancy sensors etc which , in the past used the egc as a CCC. This code makes a neutral available so the egc is not used to carry current

 

[donselec]

Well I guess if you're going to use the egc as a neutral then you're probably not going to worry about what it says in the Code , but we need a little more study yet on 404.2(A) exception, "Switch loops shall not require a grounded conductor," and 404.2(C), "the grounded circuit conductor shall be provided." Must be an answer somewhere or maybe I'm just not seeing it. I am getting old it's true.

 

[jusme123]

can someone post art 404.2(C) nec 2011?

 

[George Stolz]

There isn't a conflict. The neutral could be there from another path, provided 300.20 is complied with.

 

[George Stolz]

can someone post art 404.2(C) nec 2011?

Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the con-trolled lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be per-mitted to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:

(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads en-ter the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the ex-tension of the grounded circuit conductor of the light-ing circuit to the switch location whether or not the conductors in the raceway are required to be increased in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).

(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.

 

[DaveTap]

I was cleared by exception 1 but exception 2 has me curious:

(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.

I guess "open framing cavity" refers to situations like a computer-room floor or hanging-grid ceiling... but entering a switch box through a floor or ceiling? are we even allowed to place lighting switches there? (I know it is not ADA compliant unless the ceiling is below 42" high)

All kidding aside is this supposed to mean that if you have an unfinished attic or basement that exception 2 applies?

 

[donselec]

I was cleared by exception 1 but exception 2 has me curious:
I guess "open framing cavity" refers to situations like a computer-room floor or hanging-grid ceiling... but entering a switch box through a floor or ceiling? are we even allowed to place lighting switches there? (I know it is not ADA compliant unless the ceiling is below 42" high)

All kidding aside is this supposed to mean that if you have an unfinished attic or basement that exception 2 applies?

Well I think the reason for Exception 2 is if you have a light switch, and you want to install an electronic device that requires a neutral, such as a timer for instance, you have access so you can either rewire or run another wire to the switch and get your neutral, making sure you comply with all other parts of the Code.

 

[donselec]

There isn't a conflict. The neutral could be there from another path, provided 300.20 is complied with.

I think I see what it means now, tell me if I'm wrong, 404.2(A) Exception: "Switch loops shall not require a grounded conductor," but you still have to have a grounded conductor at the switch.

 

[George Stolz]

I think I see what it means now, tell me if I'm wrong, 404.2(A) Exception: "Switch loops shall not require a grounded conductor," but you still have to have a grounded conductor at the switch.

Yep, provided the switch is for lighting loads and doesn't comply with the exceptions.

 

[kwired]

I think I see what it means now, tell me if I'm wrong, 404.2(A) Exception: "Switch loops shall not require a grounded conductor," but you still have to have a grounded conductor at the switch.

Now you are getting it. Also notice that 404.2(C) is titled switches controlling "lighting loads", and 404.2(A) is just "three and four way switches", no mention of lighting loads.

 

[Don R]

Electrician

Electrician

Here in KY, They are making us put a neutral in every switch Single pole, 3-way, and 4-way. Romex, pipe, M/C does not matter. They say it was a code change ( I don't know the ref. off hand ) but it was put in the code for lighted switches.

 

[DaveTap]

Here in KY, They are making us put a neutral in every switch Single pole, 3-way, and 4-way. Romex, pipe, M/C does not matter. They say it was a code change ( I don't know the ref. off hand ) but it was put in the code for lighted switches.

Lighted switches don't require a neutral... they run by a trickle of current through the light fixture, (if you remove the bulb or fixture the "lighted" switch stays dark)

404.2 has a comment that says it was added because of the increased use of electronic controls and timers.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Well I guess if you're going to use the egc as a neutral then you're probably not going to worry about what it says in the Code ....

The change was not because the field installers were using the EGC as a grounded conductor. The change was made because the UL standards permitted the manufacturer of the device to use the EGC as the grounded conductor to power the device. UL would not change the standard to prohibit the manufacturers of the devices from using the EGC as a grounded conductor until the NEC required a grounded conductor at the switch location.