Neutrals and ground on the wrong bus.

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SCelectrician

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First time seeing this, I came across a panel with the neutral and ground on the wrong bus. This is a 3 wire system and where the neutral terminates in the panel all of the grounds are on this bus. On what would be the ground bus all of the neutrals are on this bus. I realize they are bonded in the panel but I can't find anything for the life of me to deem if this is illegal or not. I plan on swapping the wires irregardless I was just curious if this is in fact an issue. Any input would greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

P.s. Also there is no doubling up on wires or neutral/ground on the same bus. All of the grounds are where you would traditionally see the neutral wires and all of the neutral wires are where you would see all of the grounds normally.
 
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Can you isolate neutral and ground with the existing config or is the ground (used for neutral) bus solidly bonded to the sheet metal?

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GoldDigger said:
Can you isolate neutral and ground with the existing config or is the ground (used for neutral) bus solidly bonded to the sheet metal?

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The neutral bus is isolated, which currently has all of the grounds on it.

This is the panel currently in use. The lug that would terminate the neutral coming from the meter has all of the grounds currently on it.

355393-ProductImageURL.jpg
 
SCelectrician said:
The neutral bus is isolated, which currently has all of the grounds on it.

This is the panel currently in use. The lug that would terminate the neutral coming from the meter has all of the grounds currently on it.

355393-ProductImageURL.jpg
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Do you have photo's of the actual panel with the incorrect wiring?
 
I do not have a photo currently I forgot to take a picture earlier. In the picture provided A & B phase terminate normally. The stranded neutral wire from the meter terminates under the lug on the right hand side (neutral bus). All of the ground wires are on that bus... and visa versa for the other side.. there is no ground wire for the ground bus on the left. The neutral ground was bonded at the service panel.
 
If you look at the panel in the photo that you've posted the bar on the left is connected to the bar on the right so the neutrals and EGC's can be terminated on either one of them unless the tie bar connecting them together has been removed. Has it been removed?
 
That sounds typical for that style of installation. Is the water bond and ground rod also connected to the buss?

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infinity said:
If you look at the panel in the photo that you've posted the bar on the left is connected to the bar on the right so the neutrals and EGC's can be terminated on either one of them unless the tie bar connecting them together has been removed. Has it been removed?
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I believe it has I'll double check tomorrow...I've just never seen it done this way before... my confusion was if there was a bonding issue present. So as long as the tie bar has been removed this is indeed legal? The service was upgraded by someone and again I have just never seen the neutral/ground configuration this way.

Edit: My apologies I thought you were referring to the bar that connects the bus to the panel....you're referring to the tie bar that goes behind connecting the two buses?
 
I found a similarly miswired panel in a 4-panel PDU w/xfmr. The electrician who wired it knew better, but was distracted or tunnel-visioned. He later admitted to it, but never explained why (to me, anyway).

Technically, it was a violation. The SDS originated in the same enclosure and the SBJ termination is inches away, but the EGC's and neutrals were swapped around to make it right.
 
SCelectrician said:
I believe it has I'll double check tomorrow...I've just never seen it done this way before... my confusion was if there was a bonding issue present. So as long as the tie bar has been removed this is indeed legal? The service was upgraded by someone and again I have just never seen the neutral/ground configuration this way.

Edit: My apologies I thought you were referring to the bar that connects the bus to the panel....you're referring to the tie bar that goes behind connecting the two buses?
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No need to apologize we're just trying to envision the setup so we can get you the correct information. :cool:

If the tie bar is removed then one bus would be setup as the neutral bus and the other as the EGC bus. Given that this is a service then it's likely that the tie is still there and maybe you just didn't see it.
 
SCelectrician said:
Yes main 200amp service panelboard.
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SCelectrician said:
I do not have a photo currently I forgot to take a picture earlier. In the picture provided A & B phase terminate normally. The stranded neutral wire from the meter terminates under the lug on the right hand side (neutral bus). All of the ground wires are on that bus... and visa versa for the other side.. there is no ground wire for the ground bus on the left. The neutral ground was bonded at the service panel.
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You still have not clarified if this is service equipment or not. First quote above says yes, then you later said neutral was bonded at the service panel. Where is the "service disconnecting means" as defined by NEC? There should be no neutral to EGC bonding or cross connecting beyond that point.
 
kwired said:
You still have not clarified if this is service equipment or not. First quote above says yes, then you later said neutral was bonded at the service panel. Where is the "service disconnecting means" as defined by NEC? There should be no neutral to EGC bonding or cross connecting beyond that point.
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Service disconnect is the main breaker and the bond is at the panel. The home owners rescheduled until this weekend and I won't be able to post a picture until Saturday. So if the tie bar is there this is illegal or legal? I'll be able to supply a picture on Saturday. The above poster says it's illegal but unless I'm reading it wrong he's talking about a slightly different setup.

Edit: Unless it's different state to state the service can be bonded at the meter or panel here....sorry if I'm confusing you/myself... :slaphead:
 
With the bond between neutral and ground at this panel thee is no reason to segregate the wires between the two. There are probably not enough spaces in either bar by itself.
However, there may still be s difference between the way the two groups of wires are handled.
AFAIK a neutral wire cannot share one screw termination with either a ground or another neutral.

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SCelectrician said:
Service disconnect is the main breaker and the bond is at the panel. The home owners rescheduled until this weekend and I won't be able to post a picture until Saturday. So if the tie bar is there this is illegal or legal? I'll be able to supply a picture on Saturday. The above poster says it's illegal but unless I'm reading it wrong he's talking about a slightly different setup.

Edit: Unless it's different state to state the service can be bonded at the meter or panel here....sorry if I'm confusing you/myself... :slaphead:
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Given what you've described so far the tie bar should be there and the neutrals and EGC's can landed on either side. And it's perfectly code complaint.
 
infinity said:
Given what you've described so far the tie bar should be there and the neutrals and EGC's can landed on either side. And it's perfectly code complaint.
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Though that may be acceptable to some AHJ's, it is a violation. The neutral and equipment grounding buses must be connected to opposite ends of the main bonding jumper, which the tie bar is not.

250.24(A)...
(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounded conductor
shall not be connected to normally non–currentcarrying
metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding
conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side
of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted
in this article.
Informational Note: See 250.30 for separately derived systems,​
250.32 for connections at separate buildings or structures,​
and 250.142 for use of the grounded circuit conductor​
for grounding equipment.​
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Smart $ said:
Though that may be acceptable to some AHJ's, it is a violation. The neutral and equipment grounding buses must be connected to opposite ends of the main bonding jumper, which the tie bar is not.

250.24(A)...
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No, no, no. That is just saying that you can't use the metal enclosure as a neutral, you have to use the buss that the neutral lands on.
 
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