New AFCI rule (for the resi guys)

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New AFCI rule (for the resi guys)

  • I'm going to install less circuits so I can install less AFCI's

    Votes: 13 20.6%

  • I'm not going to change anything about circuit layout stuff the panel full of AFCI's

    Votes: 42 66.7%

  • I'm going to defy the NEC and not install AFCI's at all

    Votes: 8 12.7%
  • Total voters
    63
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That is going to be so so hard for existing circuits I mean trying to trace out a issue if you have one. And the way the people wired houses back in the day ya know go into the attic with one feed and hit every room! Oh yeah tons of fun and I already had fun with that ahh:mad:
 
For my own work I will explain to the customer what needs to be done, install the circuits the way they should be and use AFCI's on them. I'm sure there will be a time when I would have pulled 3 home runs to the bedroom for 3 bedroom houses but will instead choose to do Master Bedroom on one circuit and the other two on one circuit. But that will only be if the customer winces at the price of an extra AFCI circuit.

That being said, I don't really "bid" jobs. For the most part my customers come word of mouth so usually I am sure I have the job before we discuss an estimate. If I were to hook up with a builder who was doing new construction and complete gut-job remodels I might have to reconsider that philosophy because those guys are usually looking for efficiency. Efficiency being the combination of speed and inexpense.

I think that the circuit breaker/panel manufacturers need to step up to the plate and come up with a design that eliminates the need for that curly neutral wire. Maybe a double busbar situation where the footing of the breaker becomes a clamp onto a neutral bar to hold the breaker in place. That way all circuits will have both hot and neutral wires run to each breaker. Multiwire branch circuits will obviously need a 2 pole breaker that can balance the two hots with the neutral.

(patent pending, patent pending, patent pending...this means you! :grin:)
 
jaylectricity said:
I'm sure there will be a time when I would have pulled 3 home runs to the bedroom for 3 bedroom houses but will instead choose to do Master Bedroom on one circuit and the other two on one circuit. But that will only be if the customer winces at the price of an extra AFCI circuit.
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How about a single 20a receptacle circuit and a single 15a lighting circuit?

The former can cover the bedroom and hallway receptacles, and the latter can cover bedroom, bath, and hall lights.
 
Ok this is going to be the last time I bash on AFCI's for this week.....

Why dont the Seinens, GE's and Cuttler Hammers of the world get together and make an alarm that you could install at the main panel in a simular way to surge protectors. If it senses an arc, or ground fault it just makes an annoying "Viper Armed" type noise untill it is fixed - I believe it will work much the way some people leave the sump pump alarm going untill a neighbor goes over to physically make them call a plumber.

Of coure it would need to self test every night at some random odd hour like 10:51PM - nothing you could set a watch by.....
 
Sounds like NE is going to adopt the '08 as is, so I have started doing the AFCI thing now. We will limit the use of MWBCs and maybe reduce the # of circuits. Most homes are overwired in this area anyway.

I don't see where AFCI's are required on existing installations so that will be a maybe option on service upgrades. Extensions of existing circuits may be a challenge.

AFCIs are nonstock items for suppliers and I have let the CH distributor know he has to compete with the local Menards, Home Depot, etc.
 
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I am very curious who is choosing this option.

I'm going to defy the NEC and not install AFCI's at all
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IMO that means they are not electricians but simply hacks trying to short change their customers. :mad:

Unless of course their area does not require AFCIs. :)
 
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I'm going to defy the NEC and not install AFCI's at all if my State allows me to do so
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But that was not one of the options in the poll.
iwire said:
IMO that means they are not electricians but simply hacks trying to short change their customers.
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You're probably right but if they're in a State that requires an inspection process and if AFCI's are only required in new construction I don't see how they can get away with this.
 
iwire said:
I am very curious who is choosing this option.

IMO that means they are not electricians but simply hacks trying to short change their customers. :mad:

Unless of course their area does not require AFCIs. :)
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There are many AHJs that are deleting the AFCI requirement from their enforcement. Do they becomes hacks as well?
 
I chose option #1 simply because I'm not comfortable with a panel full of these things giving off lots of heat, and the affect this cumulative heat with have on the AFCI breakers and other non-AFCI breakers in the panel as well.

Maybe that's an unfounded concern, but it doesn't sit well with me right now.
 
480sparky said:
There are many AHJs that are deleting the AFCI requirement from their enforcement. Do they becomes hacks as well?
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Maybe they are hacks maybe they are not, but the people choosing option three definitely are.

For me I am not giving this any more thought than any other time I wire a house. I'll do what I normally do and use whatever breakers are necesary.

It's really no big deal to me. In fact it means more cash in my pocket as do tamper proof receptacles, carbon monoxide detectors, and any other code rule that adds materials or increases the cost of materials. I like that.
 
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480sparky said:
There are many AHJs that are deleting the AFCI requirement from their enforcement. Do they becomes hacks as well?
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I have no idea.

But if they are deleting the requirement legally they are much more professional then someone just choosing to ignore the rules.

IMO if an EC intentionally decides to choose 'option 3'...

I'm going to defy the NEC and not install AFCI's at all
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....they are in fact hacks.
 
If the current bunch of breaker company's would just make an effort to produce and sell 2 pole afci breakers that could be used to retrofit existing in place panels, I would not be near as upset by the way the 2008 code written. As it stands, small add ons to existing wiriing in the majority of older houses (and not so old also) around where I live, will require either running a whole new home run since multiwire branch circuits are so common to the area, or making some sort of modification like adding a subpanel to allow a CH style 2 pole afci breaker to get installed. That is asking the customer to spend an awful lot of money just to get one more outlet installed so the computer can fit in that new niche in the living room. Know what I mean Vern?
 
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