New house service has no unused spaces

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ibew501ed said:
I think the GEC is the larger black wire w/white stripe between #4 and #5 of post 17....?
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Thanks, I didn't see that but 480sparky brings up a good point
480sparky said:
If it's not, and it's the grounding cond. of a 4-wire cable, then the neutral should not be bonded.
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I usually land the water main ground on the screw lug next to the service neutral typically because it's a larger conductor and in some cases can't fit under the screw terminals of the neutral buss. The supplemental GEC conductor for a residence is never larger than # 6 and can be installed on the buss. Although it's not required I typically run it in green for easy identification. That's just my anal retentive way of doing things.:cool:
 
I see the bonding screw but I can't see a grounding electrode conductor may be my eyes.
 
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I've never installed a 30/40 panel, but I thought the tandems were only supposed to fit the bottom 5 slots on each side. (this panel being installed main breaker on bottom should only have tandems on top ten spaces)

Was I misinformed?
 
I don't get the whole idea of using 30 circuit panels in the first place. One tandem is going to push the cost up as much or more than using a 40 circuit panel to begin with. So space would be the ONLY thing that would convince me to use one.

BTW, do the QO panels have specific bus locations for tandems?
 
EBFD6 said:
also GEC could be landed in the meter socket.
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Depends on where you are. Some jurisdictions don't allow it claiming that once it's locked inside the meter enclosure it is not serviceable. Personally, I think it's a crock.
 
PetrosA said:
I don't get the whole idea of using 30 circuit panels in the first place. One tandem is going to push the cost up as much or more than using a 40 circuit panel to begin with. So space would be the ONLY thing that would convince me to use one.

BTW, do the QO panels have specific bus locations for tandems?
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As I'm sure you know a lot of things come into play when upgrading a service (i.e. space requirements, number of existing circuits, expansion capability, etc.). In the photos it appears as if the installer didn't plan well and made no provisions for expansion but we don't know all the particulars. The more I think about it and from my recollection I don't believe that the Sq D QO panels are mechanically designed to only accept tandem breakers in specific slots although Sq D has made some provisions in the design of their tandems. The QO panel covers usually tell where and if tandem breakers can be installed. Whereas, the Homeline panels will have notches in those spaces that allow tandems, but I don't believe the 150 amp, 30 circuit panels have that feature. BTW, I haven't seen a 30 circuit, Sq-D QO main breaker panel for sale over the counter but I could be mistaken. Is this really a 200 amp service ? I can't see the raised numbers on the main breaker handle.

If this is truly a new installation as the OP mentioned then the installed really didn't do a service for their customer by not allowing for expansion. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
480sparky said:
I got a dollar that says the pigtail is not in that wirenut, but goes to the top right neutral terminal.​
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You are right, I just figured out what those wire nuts are doing there. Common mistake, he landed all the neutrals on the neutral bar and then it occured to him he was useing arc fault breakers and would need to extend the neutrals to reach the breakers.

He probably hasn't use to many arc faults before and hasn't gotten used to keeping those circuits seperate when landing his neutrals. I did that once. :D We all make mistakes.​
 
480sparky said:
I'm curious as to why GFI breakers.
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The only reason I saw was that there were no GFCI receptacles in the kitchen. They did use a GFCI receptacle to protect the bath receptacles and another to protect the garage/exterior receptacles.
 
Here are some more pics of the same panel. FWIW...the left SEC was hot to the touch and the right was normal. Both wires had a 25 amp load on them when read with an amp meter. I advised the client to have the power company check the meter connections as the connections in the panel looked ok.

There is also a picture of the gas meter ground when view from the crawl space. They forgot to conect the wire together it seems.
 
ozark01 said:
the left SEC was hot to the touch and the right was normal. Both wires had a 25 amp load on them when read with an amp meter. I advised the client to have the power company check the meter connections as the connections in the panel looked ok.
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If it's hot to the touch then there is a bad connection. At 25 Amps there shouldn't be any feeling of heat. Now it may be where the lug connects to the breaker but it's still a bad connection, somewhere close, cable will act as a heat sink. ( something had to produce the heat).
 
growler said:
If it's hot to the touch then there is a bad connection. At 25 Amps there shouldn't be any feeling of heat. Now it may be where the lug connects to the breaker but it's still a bad connection, somewhere close, cable will act as a heat sink. ( something had to produce the heat).
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I agree....if this had been a service call I would have cut the seal on the meter and taken a look but since it was a pre-sell inspection on a new home it's best not to make too many waves! :)

Plus you made a good point...it could be a bad main breaker. I need to get me an infrared camera.
 
ozark01 said:
I agree....if this had been a service call I would have cut the seal on the meter and taken a look but since it was a pre-sell inspection on a new home it's best not to make too many waves! :)

Plus you made a good point...it could be a bad main breaker. I need to get me an infrared camera.
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That was a good catch on that one anyway, most inspectors would have missed the hot conductor. That can cause major problems and people won't understand how easy it would be to miss because there is normally no load on the system at the time of inspection.
 
PetrosA said:
I don't get the whole idea of using 30 circuit panels in the first place. One tandem is going to push the cost up as much or more than using a 40 circuit panel to begin with. So space would be the ONLY thing that would convince me to use one.

BTW, do the QO panels have specific bus locations for tandems?
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yes they do. if you look at instructions pasted on the door of the panel they show were they tandems Can be plugged into. they tandems have a rejection leg on the back side of the breaker.
However Square D makes what they call an old style of tandem that Can be plugged in any where on the bus. I guess that the older style panels did not have any rejection slots . I have seen many square panels that had been maxed out above an beyond what the panels listed for in Breakers.

just like I have seen field modification of busses on Siemens, Br etc where some one cut a slot in the busses to add tandem breakers where they were not designed for.
 
growler said:
He probably hasn't use to many arc faults before and hasn't gotten used to keeping those circuits seperate when landing his neutrals.[/left]
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I twist the whites and blacks of such circuits, as well as 2-wire 240v ones, together at rough to minimize that.
 
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