websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Here is a new panel that was added for a few circuits.
new panel for remodel
- Thread starter websparky
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jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: new panel for remodel
At first glance, it looks better than most of the panels I work in.
But on closer inspection...
1. The two circuits on the left appear to have no grounding conductors. I don't see any entering the conduit on the left.
2. I'm pretty sure the black and red wires with the white tape aren't big enough to allow this kind of redesignation.
3. The panel ground looks kinda small, assuming it's connected properly from the source. It doesn't appear to be coming out of the feeder conduit.
4. Let's not forget the double-lugged neutrals on the right. I realize it's a QO panel, but there actually were extra spaces available this time!
At first glance, it looks better than most of the panels I work in.
But on closer inspection...
1. The two circuits on the left appear to have no grounding conductors. I don't see any entering the conduit on the left.
2. I'm pretty sure the black and red wires with the white tape aren't big enough to allow this kind of redesignation.
3. The panel ground looks kinda small, assuming it's connected properly from the source. It doesn't appear to be coming out of the feeder conduit.
4. Let's not forget the double-lugged neutrals on the right. I realize it's a QO panel, but there actually were extra spaces available this time!
Re: new panel for remodel
Item # 2 Give code refrance
Item # 3 I agree but the feeders look like # 8 or #6 if so that would be ok NEC T 250.122 bt it does look like the ground wire is not coming from the conduit
Item # 4 I agree
[ November 03, 2005, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Jhr ]
Item #1 that is ok NEC 250.118
Item # 2 Give code refrance
Item # 3 I agree but the feeders look like # 8 or #6 if so that would be ok NEC T 250.122 bt it does look like the ground wire is not coming from the conduit
Item # 4 I agree
[ November 03, 2005, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Jhr ]
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: new panel for remodel
Item 2: 200.6(A) says that wires #6 and smaller must have continuous white finish or white stripes along their entire length. 200.6(B) says that you can redesignate at terminations if the wire is bigger than #6.
Item 2: 200.6(A) says that wires #6 and smaller must have continuous white finish or white stripes along their entire length. 200.6(B) says that you can redesignate at terminations if the wire is bigger than #6.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: new panel for remodel
The two breakers on the left hand side are "new". The breakers on the right are "old". Notice the presence of the yellow logo, this was introduced about 12 years ago.
The two breakers on the left hand side are "new". The breakers on the right are "old". Notice the presence of the yellow logo, this was introduced about 12 years ago.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: new panel for remodel
I do not see this as a DIY type of installation. There are two butt splices on the left side of the panel, that is not typical for DIYers. The re-identification is a situation we see everywhere, and most guys think it is okay to do, as they get it mixed up with 200.7 which permits the re-identification of white conductors as phase conductors in a limited way. For the casual reader of the NEC, it is not hard to see how they get these two sections mixed up.
With all of the room on the ground bus, I am a little surprised to see two EGC terminated together under one screw. It looks like Rigid is used for the panel supply raceway- hence the use of a bushing - nope, this is no DIYer work
I do not see this as a DIY type of installation. There are two butt splices on the left side of the panel, that is not typical for DIYers. The re-identification is a situation we see everywhere, and most guys think it is okay to do, as they get it mixed up with 200.7 which permits the re-identification of white conductors as phase conductors in a limited way. For the casual reader of the NEC, it is not hard to see how they get these two sections mixed up.
With all of the room on the ground bus, I am a little surprised to see two EGC terminated together under one screw. It looks like Rigid is used for the panel supply raceway- hence the use of a bushing - nope, this is no DIYer work
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Re: new panel for remodel
2- Re-identified neutrals must #4 or larger.
3- The EGC does originate in the feeder. Look at the top of the bushing. It is emerging at the top and is bent around behind the bushing. It does look small however compared to the size of the feeder conductors. Pulling it out would eliminate that violation.
4- Two neutrals under one screw violates 408.41.
I would agree that this is beyond the scope of DIY work.
1- The conduit is the EGC.
2- Re-identified neutrals must #4 or larger.
3- The EGC does originate in the feeder. Look at the top of the bushing. It is emerging at the top and is bent around behind the bushing. It does look small however compared to the size of the feeder conductors. Pulling it out would eliminate that violation.
4- Two neutrals under one screw violates 408.41.
I would agree that this is beyond the scope of DIY work.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: new panel for remodel
feeders are aluminum,Where is the anti oxident?
feeders are aluminum,Where is the anti oxident?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: new panel for remodel
I'll take this with the violations (minor) over some of the crap I have to deal with working in older homes.
I'll take this with the violations (minor) over some of the crap I have to deal with working in older homes.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Re: new panel for remodel
They look like copper to me. Shiny jacket appears to be THHN. And why do we need antioxidant if the lugs are CU/AL rated?
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: new panel for remodel
Inhibitor is not required unless so stated on the instructions for the lug.
Inhibitor is not required unless so stated on the instructions for the lug.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: new panel for remodel
Double lugged neutrals was the first thing I noticed,then 2 grounds in one conduit{on right)The Grounding conductor seems to be a #12 might be #10?,as long as the breakers are servicable and same manufacturer what creates a problem there.Ageeed the reidentified neutral(s) are well lets say cheezy to be polite.As well as a violation. butt splice is that legal ???? A wire nut would be in my book a better means of extending a wire that ran short or was cut short.
All in all if DIY`R it is alot better than some of the garbage I have seen in 32 years
The worst was a 4 room extensiom wired in lampcord oh and on a 30 amp breaker.Some one call the F.D.
Double lugged neutrals was the first thing I noticed,then 2 grounds in one conduit{on right)The Grounding conductor seems to be a #12 might be #10?,as long as the breakers are servicable and same manufacturer what creates a problem there.Ageeed the reidentified neutral(s) are well lets say cheezy to be polite.As well as a violation. butt splice is that legal ???? A wire nut would be in my book a better means of extending a wire that ran short or was cut short.
All in all if DIY`R it is alot better than some of the garbage I have seen in 32 years
The worst was a 4 room extensiom wired in lampcord oh and on a 30 amp breaker.Some one call the F.D.
stew
Senior Member
- Location
- federal way,washington
Re: new panel for remodel
allenwayne please tell me why you think 2 grounds in one conduit is not ok? The only thing i see wrong is that the red balck neutrals are not reidentified for thier full length. I also would have used a wire nut instead of a butt splice however if the splice is listed for the wire size it is ok to use.IMHO Difficult to tell whether or not the blacks leaving vertically are #4 or not and if so would reqiure bushings on the pipe.
[ November 06, 2005, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: stew ]
allenwayne please tell me why you think 2 grounds in one conduit is not ok? The only thing i see wrong is that the red balck neutrals are not reidentified for thier full length. I also would have used a wire nut instead of a butt splice however if the splice is listed for the wire size it is ok to use.IMHO Difficult to tell whether or not the blacks leaving vertically are #4 or not and if so would reqiure bushings on the pipe.
[ November 06, 2005, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: stew ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: new panel for remodel
Actually they is no code compliant way to remark those conductors to white.
paul
Senior Member
- Location
- Snohomish, WA
Re: new panel for remodel
Other than a few minor code violations (remove #12 ground with feeders, seperate two neuts on neut bar and fix the re-indentification), I too, would take this installation over many others I have seen. There are no immediate safety violations.
Other than a few minor code violations (remove #12 ground with feeders, seperate two neuts on neut bar and fix the re-indentification), I too, would take this installation over many others I have seen. There are no immediate safety violations.
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