Nitrous Oxide Tank Install

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wrobotronic

wrobotronic

Senior Member
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Colorado
Hi All,
I wanted to verify that an N2O Storage tank is in a classified 1 div 1 location according to the NEC 515.3 and Table 515.3 (Tank- Aboveground). Thus the stated area will require fittings and wiring methods per 501 or 505 depending on the classification method used?

This N2O tank is also with in 6ft of a CO2 storage tank. Are there any other methods or practices I may want to consider?

There are drawings of this project, but they are basically a site plan with equipment locations. Nothing about explosion proof fittings or the area being classified. The AHJ has not issued the permit and I can only assume they will be asking for these classifications to be included. So I wanted to get a jump on this and be as prepared as possible.


Thanks...
 
wrobotronic said:
Hi All,
I wanted to verify that an N2O Storage tank is in a classified 1 div 1 location according to the NEC 515.3 and Table 515.3 (Tank- Aboveground). Thus the stated area will require fittings and wiring methods per 501 or 505 depending on the classification method used?

This N2O tank is also with in 6ft of a CO2 storage tank. Are there any other methods or practices I may want to consider?

There are drawings of this project, but they are basically a site plan with equipment locations. Nothing about explosion proof fittings or the area being classified. The AHJ has not issued the permit and I can only assume they will be asking for these classifications to be included. So I wanted to get a jump on this and be as prepared as possible.


Thanks...
Click to expand...

I don't think nitrous oxide is considered flammable, but I could be wrong. CO2 certainly isn't.
 
Just a comment:

Class defines the state of the hazardous material. Class 1 simply means gas.

Different gasses are categorized by groups, C & D being most common.

Division is used to describe the likely presence of the hazard. D1 - hazard is normally present; D2 - hazard is present only under abnormal conditions.

Making a statement such as “gas x is class 1 division 1” without other context is in itself not correct.
 
wrobotronic said:
Correct, but I believe it is a cryogenic liquid. And these fall into a class 1 div 1 don't they?
Click to expand...

500.5 (B) Class I Locations. Class I locations are those in which
flammable gases, flammable liquid–produced vapors, or
combustible liquid–produced vapors are or may be present in
the air in quantities sufficient to produce explosive or ignitible
mixtures.
Click to expand...

the code is pretty clear about what constitutes a class I location. Do you see anything in there about cryogenic liquids?

I suggest you should not be involved in determining area classification unless you can educate yourself better on the subject.
 
petersonra said:
the code is pretty clear about what constitutes a class I location. Do you see anything in there about cryogenic liquids?

I suggest you should not be involved in determining area classification unless you can educate yourself better on the subject.
Click to expand...
Wow. Education was my goal in asking the question. Not sure you are the one understanding the purpose of the forum.

Here is a reference to N2O being a cryogenic liquid... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10215117/

Then NFPA 59A speaks directly to this... and refers to the NEC to Bulk Storage.

lastly in the 2014 NEC handbook pg. 665 specifically refers to storage of cryogenic liquids.

I was just hoping for some help not a lecture about how great you are and how shitty I am. I'm sure you would rather see some one else do the install and have the thing blow up? Which can happen... I'm just trying to educate myself...

Thanks for the help...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
wrobotronic said:
Wow. Education was my goal in asking the question. Not sure you are the one understanding the purpose of the forum.

Here is a reference to N2O being a cryogenic liquid... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10215117/

Then NFPA 59A speaks directly to this... and refers to the NEC to Bulk Storage.

lastly in the 2014 NEC handbook pg. 665 specifically refers to storage of cryogenic liquids.

I was just hoping for some help not a lecture about how great you are and how shitty I am. I'm sure you would rather see some one else do the install and have the thing blow up? Which can happen... I'm just trying to educate myself...

Thanks for the help...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Not so much a lecture as an observation. There seems to be a lot of people out there deciding area classifications that probably should not be. It is not as simple as a lot of people think.

I think part of it is that people mistake sometimes measures taken to mitigate other hazards with measures taken to mitigate hazards from classified areas. It is not unusual to find similar wiring and protective methods (such as seals) used in areas that are not classified. There are hazards that are at least peripherally related to the electrical installation that the code for class I, II, or III areas does not address because those hazards do not fit into those schemes.

Personally, I don't think it is reasonable for someone to expect a professional opinion on what the proper area classification would be in a few sentences on the Internet. If you don't have the experience and training and knowledge to make those decisions on your own, you should not be doing so, and should be paying someone who has those capabilities to make the call.

if you think there is some special hazard afforded by the presence of cryogenic liquids, you should perhaps seek out someone who has actual expertise in that area and pay said person to make a determination.
 
petersonra said:
There seems to be a lot of people out there deciding area classifications that probably should not be. It is not as simple as a lot of people think.
Click to expand...

I won't argue with the statement above, but in defense of wrobo, he never said he was the one determining the classification.

The OP stated that he expected the AHJ to make a classification determination.
 
steve66 said:
I won't argue with the statement above, but in defense of wrobo, he never said he was the one determining the classification.

The OP stated that he expected the AHJ to make a classification determination.
Click to expand...

It is not the job of the AHJ to make such a determination. And the Op never said the AHJ would be determining the classification, only that they would want to know what it is.

The AHJ has not issued the permit and I can only assume they will be asking for these classifications to be included.
Click to expand...
 
steve66 said:
I won't argue with the statement above, but in defense of wrobo, he never said he was the one determining the classification.

The OP stated that he expected the AHJ to make a classification determination.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree either. And I'm not the engineer nor the AHJ. I'm the electrician that will follow the prints that people above my pay grade are paid to design.

I was simply trying to get some input from this forum and thoughts on the subject. I know my place on the ladder petersonra...

Again, I must have clearly misunderstood the purpose of this forum to, in fact, seek out people with superior knowledge on questions I may have.

Reading my post again, before, jumping in my ass, might bode well for you to see what I am asking. I never stated I was making any decisions what so ever, just asking a question. Mainly, so that when an AHJ approaches me with your type of attitude and condescension, I can speak somewhat intellectually about what I'm doing.

I'm positive you have made mistakes and you are not as amazing as you seem to think you are, but you can piss off if you don't want to help... or stay nestled in your cube and be a keyboard warrior.

I don't really care, but I come to this forum for assistance to try and be the best electrician I can be. You may be better and that's fine, but don't for one minute think that there is no one here that can't shred your perceptions of superiority.

Nevermind, I should not even do this job. I'm worthless and inferior. I should just go back to washing dishes for minimum wage. I don't need to try and improve myself. Should I pass along the bid docs to you petersonra? There may be more people you can crush and demean...

What was I thinking?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
You’re neither worthless nor inferior. We are simply telling you that being a cryogenic material alone does not create a Class I, Division 1 location. There are some cryogenic materials, such as LNG, that could create a Classified location, just not all cryogenic materials; only those that would be flammable in their “natural” state, such as natural gas.
 
rbalex said:
You’re neither worthless nor inferior. We are simply telling you that being a cryogenic material alone does not create a Class I, Division 1 location. There are some cryogenic materials, such as LNG, that could create a Classified location, just not all cryogenic materials; only those that would be flammable in their “natural” state, such as natural gas.
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Golly. Thank you rbalex. That's ALL I was asking.

I only wanted to make sure that when I follow direction from someone "paid to design" the project, I was understanding correctly. N2O can explode, and I just needed some direction. Thank you for providing it...

Fear not tho... I shall find more stupid questions to ask at some point... thank you kindly...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
wrobotronic said:
I don't disagree either. And I'm not the engineer nor the AHJ. I'm the electrician that will follow the prints that people above my pay grade are paid to design.

I was simply trying to get some input from this forum and thoughts on the subject. I know my place on the ladder petersonra...

Again, I must have clearly misunderstood the purpose of this forum to, in fact, seek out people with superior knowledge on questions I may have.

Reading my post again, before, jumping in my ass, might bode well for you to see what I am asking. I never stated I was making any decisions what so ever, just asking a question. Mainly, so that when an AHJ approaches me with your type of attitude and condescension, I can speak somewhat intellectually about what I'm doing.

I'm positive you have made mistakes and you are not as amazing as you seem to think you are, but you can piss off if you don't want to help... or stay nestled in your cube and be a keyboard warrior.

I don't really care, but I come to this forum for assistance to try and be the best electrician I can be. You may be better and that's fine, but don't for one minute think that there is no one here that can't shred your perceptions of superiority.

Nevermind, I should not even do this job. I'm worthless and inferior. I should just go back to washing dishes for minimum wage. I don't need to try and improve myself. Should I pass along the bid docs to you petersonra? There may be more people you can crush and demean...

What was I thinking?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It is not about your "place on the ladder", whatever you think you mean by that.

My attitude is that I know enough to know when I don't know, at least most of the time. Then I pay someone who does know, or I learn.

I understand why you might think even a very mild rebuke is condescending. It's not meant that way. Just an observation as much as anything else. If you allow such a minor thing to crush and demean you, perhaps you should take a look inside yourself.

I have made my share of mistakes (and maybe a few other peoples shares too) and hopefully have learned from them.
 
petersonra said:
It is not about your "place on the ladder", whatever you think you mean by that.

My attitude is that I know enough to know when I don't know, at least most of the time. Then I pay someone who does know, or I learn.

I understand why you might think even a very mild rebuke is condescending. It's not meant that way. Just an observation as much as anything else. If you allow such a minor thing to crush and demean you, perhaps you should take a look inside yourself.

I have made my share of mistakes (and maybe a few other peoples shares too) and hopefully have learned from them.
Click to expand...

Then this forum is not a place to learn then?

I am doing exactly what you stated to do. Learn.

Again, my mistake for misunderstanding. I will just go in blind and pray the inspector, EE, GC knows what they are doing and hope for the best. And believe me when I say that your "mild" rebuke was not such. And the Air Force made me look inside myself plenty, I am quite comfortable with myself... your words did not crush or demean me (again, read what was written) nor could they ever... so stick with your Electrical path and leave the psychology to those "who have the expertise"

I will also continue to seek advice from those with superior knowledge on this forum, regardless of your misguided "observations" to the contrary... just don't respond to my idiocy please... (this is the part where u get me kicked out to show everyone what a tough guy looks like and how much "power" you have)

Thanks again... to those that helped. I learned alot...



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
Going to wade in. (stupid me!:p)

OP you probably have a valid point that Petersonra should have clarified before he chastised you. He certainly shouldn't steal my tagline! But in his defense we have seen this several times where people are classifying the area. I think we can fault the code book a little because I have struggled with this myself. Like many areas of the NEC, referencing other codes is required and that generally gets us outside of the realm of an electrician, however, it is very hard to know when those times are. Those who are not in our trade have an even harder struggle with this. For example, "Does this building require a fire alarm system?" We may know yes from experience, but the answers are found in NFPA 101 or the IBC or whatever building code your state adopts. But before that can even be determined, there are a ton of other pieces of information that have to be determined. Ditto, where to place emergency lights. Really an electrician can't do this, because an Architect has to determine the path of egress first.

To your question. You will notice that the NEC doesn't even tell you what gasses are what with some exceptions. It doesn't tell you what areas are actually classified either, instead it tells you what the classified areas represent and what wiring methods you are to use. WITH some exceptions. They cover certain common specific applications. Perhaps they shouldn't. Who knows why they have decided to. NFPA 497 and 499 are actually the codes that guide how to determine the classification of areas. I believe there are other codes that spell out the characteristics of different chemicals, elements etc. that need consideration. It is quite complex. That is why a vanilla shell Engineer who comes across a unique situation can often make the mistake of assuming just like we can. Ii look at it like, it is better for him to assume than for me to assume.:D
 
Strathead said:
Going to wade in. (stupid me!:p)

OP you probably have a valid point that Petersonra should have clarified before he chastised you. He certainly shouldn't steal my tagline! But in his defense we have seen this several times where people are classifying the area. I think we can fault the code book a little because I have struggled with this myself. Like many areas of the NEC, referencing other codes is required and that generally gets us outside of the realm of an electrician, however, it is very hard to know when those times are. Those who are not in our trade have an even harder struggle with this. For example, "Does this building require a fire alarm system?" We may know yes from experience, but the answers are found in NFPA 101 or the IBC or whatever building code your state adopts. But before that can even be determined, there are a ton of other pieces of information that have to be determined. Ditto, where to place emergency lights. Really an electrician can't do this, because an Architect has to determine the path of egress first.

To your question. You will notice that the NEC doesn't even tell you what gasses are what with some exceptions. It doesn't tell you what areas are actually classified either, instead it tells you what the classified areas represent and what wiring methods you are to use. WITH some exceptions. They cover certain common specific applications. Perhaps they shouldn't. Who knows why they have decided to. NFPA 497 and 499 are actually the codes that guide how to determine the classification of areas. I believe there are other codes that spell out the characteristics of different chemicals, elements etc. that need consideration. It is quite complex. That is why a vanilla shell Engineer who comes across a unique situation can often make the mistake of assuming just like we can. Ii look at it like, it is better for him to assume than for me to assume.:D
Click to expand...
Thank you very much. I find Classed locations to be very confusing, much along the lines of grounding and bonding.. lol.

The thing that has thrown me way out of the bounds of my knowledge was the mention in the handbook of the Cryogenic Liquids. I was willing to accept that there was no need to class the location and perhaps I have over thought the entire approach. I have still probably not even stated that correctly in the first place as noted by a previous post.

I am just trying to understand this situation better. I see what you are saying and how we can quickly get out the realm of our responsibilities as electricians.

Thank you again for the clear and informative post.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
wrobotronic said:
Correct, but I believe it is a cryogenic liquid. And these fall into a class 1 div 1 don't they?
Click to expand...
It may be a liquefied gas, but it is is not cryogenic. Cryogenic liquids cannot be kept in the liquid state by pressure alone, you either need to use a refrigeration system or boil off some of the liquid and vent the vapor to store a cryogenic liquid.
 
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