NM Raceway?

[iwire]

Re: NM Raceway?

Originally posted by pierre:
These 'hangers' (which in my estimation are low voltage roughing plates) will not satisfy the requirement, therefore are not compliant.

That is my feeling too, even if we accept that these are listed NM hangers we must use them in a code compliant manner.

Originally posted by msd:
What is this product, and is it listed for this application? That is all that matters.

I do not agree, no matter what the listing of these units are they must be used in a code compliant manner. How would you use these and meet the requirements of 334.15

334.15 Exposed Work.

In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), the cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).

(A) To Follow Surface. The cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.

(C) In Unfinished Basements. Where the cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements, it shall be permissible to secure cables not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG conductors directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running boards.

Someone please explain to me how a listed product can change the above requirements?

I doubt highly that the listing is "Listed for supporting NM out in the open of unfinished basements"

[ May 30, 2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: NM Raceway?

What`s the difference between these hangers and having 2x4 supports between TGI trusses and running NM on them.doesnt bundling occur when you have more than 9 current carrying conductors secured within 24 ins. of each other?So does supported also be considered secured???

 

[websparky]

Re: NM Raceway?

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all of your responses!

Here are the 3 references I have sited as to why this installation is in violation of the NEC.

334.15 Exposed Work (C) In Unfinished Basements......Smaller cables shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running boards.

334.30 Securing and Supporting.Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (41/2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every cabinet, box, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge.

310.15 (B)(2)(a) More Than Three Current-Carrying Conductors in a Raceway or Cable. Where the number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor cables are stacked or bundled longer than 600 mm (24 in.) without maintaining spacing and are not installed in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(2)(a).

The contractor has yet to return my call as to why he thinks this is an acceptable installation.

As far as "listing" information, I will be interested to see how this product satisfies the code requirements above.

 

[websparky]

Re: NM Raceway?

Hi Guys,

The product is "Listed".

So here is my question;

310.15(B)(2)(a) Adjustment Factors.
(a) More Than Three Current-Carrying Conductors in a Raceway or Cable. Where the number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor cables are stacked or bundled longer than 600 mm (24 in.) without maintaining spacing and are not installed in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(2)(a).

Let's suppose that the securing is not an issue and see if:
(1)the install will comply with the derating and
(2)with the fill allowance of 40% specified by the manufacturer.

(1). The install has six 12/3WG NM cables, six 12/2WG NM cables and one 8/3WG NM cable.
Current carrying conductors: (12/2)= 6, (12/3)= 12 and (8/3)= 2, for a total of 20 current carrying conductors.
According to the Table, the derating is 50%. The 12AWG would be reduced to 15A and the 8AWG would be reduced to 22.5A. The breakers installed are 20A and 40A respectively.

(2.) Let's guess the size of the 12/2NM is 3/8", (.375 x 6) = 2.25 sq."
Let's guess the size of the 12/3NM is 1/2", (.5 x 6) = 3.00 sq."
Let's guess the size of the 8/3NM is 3/4" = .75"
That would give us a total of (2.25 + 3.00 + .75) 6.00 sq." fill.

The product has a cross section of 7.25 sq.". When we calculate 40%, we have a result of 2.90 sq.".

Based on the above calculations, (if you agree they are acurate) would you agree that the install does not satisfy these code requirements?

Thanks for your consideration.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: NM Raceway?

Web sparky you have all to much time on your hands.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: NM Raceway?

If ROGER can do it so can I !!!!!

 

[roger]

Re: NM Raceway?

Allen,

Originally posted by a.wayne3@verizon.net:
If ROGER can do it so can I !!!!!

Roger

 

[websparky]

Re: NM Raceway?

Guys,

I did the math wrong on the sq.in.'s.

Anybody got a clue on the sq.in. for the NM??

 

[roger]

Re: NM Raceway?

Hello Dave, the measurement would be with a field device such as a tape or a micrometer.

Roger

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: NM Raceway?

Why won't anyone tell us what the "Product" is? Lots of speculation. No real answers.

 

[hurk27]

Re: NM Raceway?

"Bundling"

This is one definition that I wish was in article 100!

If this is bundling then running NM through drilled holes is also.

The NEC only says:

bundled longer than 24 in. without maintaining spacing

Between each ring or hole the cables can be pulled apart and even held apart by using cable stackers. I agree if the cables are forced together for more than 24" then it would be bundling.
But I don't see that.
Just my two cent's worth.

 

[macmikeman]

Re: NM Raceway?

I am siding with Hurk on this one. The key word on 310-15 should have been "tightly" bundled, but doesn't appear. If the cables were all tie wrapped together like control wiring inside a motor controller cabinet then I would be all for de rating however based on this picture the cables have plenty of air spacing around each other. I think that de rating of cables by bundling needs to be further looked at by the code panels and clarified. As far as this particular job goes, I personally would have either used a running board, or drilled the joist out.

 

[websparky]

Re: NM Raceway?

Here is a link to several scans of the product.

CLICK HERE to view UL #

Remember, this is a trough designed to protect NM type cables.

If someone can find more UL info on this, other than what is in the "white book", please let us know!

 

[jes25]

Re: NM Raceway?

The stuff is called speedway and a inspector patened up here in michigan(there may be other similiar products but that looks like speedway). I use it and love it, it super fast and looks better and gives more protection when it is done. It is listed for the use and it tells how many wires you can put in it right on the cover. Remember the top is open to help let out heat. You guys should try it if its available in your area.

 

[hurk27]

Re: NM Raceway?

Here is the company info from UL:

SPEEDWAY ELECTRICAL PRODUCTS
3283 METAMORA RD
OXFORD, MI 48371 USA

And here is what an address search showed up?
could be one in the same?

HARD ROCK SOLID SURFACES OF MI
3283 Metamora Rd
Oxford, MI 48371
(248) 628-7588

And here is the catalog numbers:
Nonmetallic speedway system:Base, Cat. No. CV-6, Coupler, Cat. No. CC-6, Cable support, Cat. No. CS-6, End cap, Cat. No. EC-6.

[ June 05, 2004, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[cs409]

Re: NM Raceway?

of all places the word bundled is definded in Chapter 5, Special Occupancies.. article 520.2 Bundled. Cables or conductors that are physically tied, wrapped, taped, or otherwise periodeically bound together.

 

[tom25]

Re: NM Raceway?

I just found out about this, and if anyone has questions about the non-metallic support system give me a call at xxx-xxx-xxxx.
I'm the inventor and know all about the UL testing performed.

(edited by moderator to remove personal contact information. please initiate contact using the PM function of the forum. thanks)

[ July 17, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]

 

[websparky]

Re: NM Raceway?

Great! Please provide the UL listing information.

 

[tom25]

Re: NM Raceway?

The UL category is UL 2239,
Hardware For The Support Of Conduit, Tubing, And Cable.
Other products in the category are, staples, stackers, tie wraps.
The listing is for 1 & 2 family.
The product supports the cables, and provides physical protection when the cover is installed.

 

[websparky]

Re: NM Raceway?

Tom,

How do you justify this chart which comes with your product. This is surely not part of the UL listing.

and this information applies to your product?

Even if it did apply, the fill ratio does not match the chart!

Notice where it says: "Passed UL temperature tests...."

I would love to see the UL results of this "test".

[ July 18, 2005, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: websparky ]