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QuoQue,
The King Industries AlumiComm connector,
is this the one with three set screws in an alloy body, pre-greased?
If so, I have done several houses using them. They seem to work well.
I still question the use of a set screw, with Alum creep,
but there are no spring-wire-nuts available which are truthfully suitable.
 
iWire,

I lived in a neighborhood of 3000 houses, all wired with aluminum.
After 17 years of watching houses catch fire, I am cautious.
I want to see the facts in writing.

I had to fix my house, my neighbors house, and a half dozen others (for money, of course). We all had Alum electrical (near fire) damage. I've been in houses where you could literally see the sparking behind receptical plates (with the lights turned out, of course). I have seen POCO neutrals burn out a meter base. I used to collect the fragments, but it got to where the collection was not a fun thing. It became a sad fact that the Alum was not a safe wiring material.

I have heard that there is a new alloy. I am probably not going to believe any advertisements that say it is safe. Not as long as there is enough copper to go around.

I want to see the facts before I would ever advise my contractor (boss) to use Alum.
Obviously, I am biased and I hope it is on the side of safety.

Comments, please.
 
KDA,

It is not in your head.
The Alum has a high thermal expansion/contraction rate.

Tighten the terminal to a 'gas tight' state.
If there is any oxide on the surface, under your terminals,
then current flow will increase the heating effect, causing more expansion, more 'cold flow' creep,
and upon cooling there will be a 'looseness' with oxygen seeping into the gap. It is no longer 'gas tight'.

I don't see a quick fix for this problem.
Perhaps re-tightening every month. I hate to say that.
Imagine the maintenance cost for this re-torque proceedure.

We torque the copper wires according to the specs.
I wonder if there is a 'proper' torque for Alum terminals.

Comments, please.
 
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QuoQue,
The King Industries AlumiComm connector,
could that be the Super Crimp Connector, like a butt splice?
I looked into that one several years back.
The hydralic crimper that they require starts at $1000,
and they wanted me to attend a day-long teaching session
to use it and be certified.

That was economically un-feasable. I found no-one in Memphis that could supply that service.
 
glene77is said:
I lived in a neighborhood of 3000 houses, all wired with aluminum.
After 17 years of watching houses catch fire, I am cautious.
Click to expand...

And if that is going to the basis for your concerns I would like to see something in writing that shows there is a higher fire rate in that neighborhood then in a copper neighborhood.

I grew up in a 1970 home with AL wiring protected by FPE breakers, the entire neighborhood was like that. :D

It became a sad fact that the Alum was not a safe wiring material.
Click to expand...

That is an opinion and one that is not shared by the NEC, to this day the NEC allows the installation of aluminum wiring.

I have heard that there is a new alloy.
Click to expand...

Not they new but different from the first generation of AL conductors. Not sure what year they changed the alloy.

I am probably not going to believe any advertisements that say it is safe.
Click to expand...

Well you could just look at the amount of AL wiring that is still installed each day and make some assumptions based on that.


Obviously, I am biased and I hope it is on the side of safety.
Click to expand...

No, I am shocked. :D

I am sure your reasons are for safety, I am just not sure they are based on facts and not fears. :smile:
 
Don,

don_resqcapt19 said:
Where did you find that rule? One of the biggest causes of problems with aluminum terminations is that they are made up too tight.
Click to expand...

Good observation.
I try to learn from what others find.
I can not possibly live long enough to see it all,
nor make enough mistakes to learn enough.

I brought this subject of Alum & Copper Connections with a very old, experienced EC in Memphis.
Fred advised that he simply used Alum wire from his stock,
making an Alum to Alum joint, as a back-bone around the circuit,
leaving an Alum pigtail for connecting to each certified Alum receptical.
And, he specifically said that he (1) greased, then (2) abraded the Alum,
then (3) made the joint with a hard shell wire nut.

About the wire nut, I don't have the name, source, etc.
I recall reading that Aronstein (Inspect-NY.com) suggested the use of them,
but I could not find a source. Maybe I should look again.

Personally,
I like the idea of a 'spring' wire nut
more than the 'set screw' alloy connector.

Comments please.
 
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George Stolz said:
The content of your posts are unchanged, I just fixed the quotes to clarify who was saying what.

Anyone interested, if you click on the
viewpost.gif
buttons inside the quotes, it will take you to the original quote in the other thread.

I closed the other thread solely because it's confusing for people to participate in a conversation from six months ago.

And off you go... :)
Click to expand...

I don't understand the logic. Why close the thread? It doesn't have any discussion that would be affected by the age of it.
This thread will no doubt just rehash the same discussion.
 
The new "alloy" aluminum conductor came on the market in the early 70's...at the same time the CO/ALR devices were introduced. The main change on the devices was to use an aluminum termination screw that has the same thermal expansion as the conductor. We did some apartments with the new aluminum and those units had no more problems than units wired in copper. I don't have any experience with the older branch circuit aluminum conductors.
 
iwire said:
And if that is going to the basis for your concerns I would like to see something in writing that shows there is a higher fire rate in that neighborhood then in a copper neighborhood.

I grew up in a 1970 home with AL wiring protected by FPE breakers, the entire neighborhood was like that. :D



That is an opinion and one that is not shared by the NEC, to this day the NEC allows the installation of aluminum wiring.



Not they new but different from the first generation of AL conductors. Not sure what year they changed the alloy.



Well you could just look at the amount of AL wiring that is still installed each day and make some assumptions based on that.




No, I am shocked. :D

I am sure your reasons are for safety, I am just not sure they are based on facts and not fears. :smile:
Click to expand...


I enjoyed that rebuttal. Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
glene77is said:
QuoQue,
The King Industries AlumiComm connector,
is this the one with three set screws in an alloy body, pre-greased?
If so, I have done several houses using them. They seem to work well.
I still question the use of a set screw, with Alum creep,
but there are no spring-wire-nuts available which are truthfully suitable.
Click to expand...

They are the only connector on the market right now that I know of that are al to al only rated. The purple wirenuts are only approved for cu to al. I have not used the king product yet as I try to steer clear of any al wiring as its liability is not worth the profit involved. They sent me a free sample of one connector which I hold as my holy grail in my wirenut container.
 
tkb said:
I don't understand the logic. Why close the thread? It doesn't have any discussion that would be affected by the age of it.
This thread will no doubt just rehash the same discussion.
Click to expand...

If you followed the thread you will find that NEW evidence has been introduced and was only discovered by some when the thread was closed
 
iwire said:
And if that is going to the basis for your concerns I would like to see something in writing that shows there is a higher fire rate in that neighborhood then in a copper neighborhood.

I grew up in a 1970 home with AL wiring protected by FPE breakers, the entire neighborhood was like that. :D



That is an opinion and one that is not shared by the NEC, to this day the NEC allows the installation of aluminum wiring.



Not they new but different from the first generation of AL conductors. Not sure what year they changed the alloy.



Well you could just look at the amount of AL wiring that is still installed each day and make some assumptions based on that.




No, I am shocked. :D

I am sure your reasons are for safety, I am just not sure they are based on facts and not fears. :smile:
Click to expand...
You have got to be kidding me and yourself Do rules only apply when it is convenient for your preconceived notions or are you up to learning anything from this
 
iwire said:
I did not say that either, I said the problem has more to do with the alloy then the installer.
Click to expand...

IMO, both the Alum and the Installer are factors.

Alum is a reactive metal, oxidizes quickly.
Sweaty hands on the freshly stripped wires will excellerate the oxidation.

Comments?
 
Iwire,

Not sure what year they changed the alloy
Click to expand...

In Memphis, it was prevelant in the 60's, and stopped in the early 80's.
I never actually saw details about why installation was halted. Just hearsay.

I quickly agree that the alloy could have been changed.
I quickly agree that the alloy could be better now.

I am curious about the specifications.
I may have to research this myself, when I get back to Memphis.

Comments?
 
iWire,
I grew up in a 1970 home with AL wiring protected by FPE breakers, the entire neighborhood was like that.
Click to expand...

My old house was Alum, with a nice old G.E. panel.
This house is copper with an FPE panel.
It is just hard to get away from all the problems!

Sometimes I wish I had a contact for replacing all the FPE panels in Memphis!
I could pass the contact along to the boss and stay busy for a long while.

Comments are welcome.
 
quogueelectric said:
You have got to be kidding me and yourself Do rules only apply when it is convenient for your preconceived notions or are you up to learning anything from this
Click to expand...

What the heck are you talking about?

Where did I say to break any rules?

Show me one post that said not to use antioxidant paste on connections when it is required.

You do realize that the NEC does not in itself require the use of any antioxidant pastes?
 
iWire,

That is an opinion and one that is not shared by the NEC, to this day the NEC allows the installation of aluminum wiring.
Click to expand...

You are right, it is 'code'.
I understand that the NEC is the minimum consideration for safety.
We are obliged to determine the truly safe application ( >= NEC specs).

By the same token, TN posts 75mph on the expressway,
which is good for clear days, and in terrible, windy, raining weather.
I am obliged to determine the truly save speed (<= the posted limit).

See where I am coming from ?

You made some good points.
And it is obvious that I need to do more current research on the suitability of Alum.
I will combine that with a healthy respect for Fire Safety.
 
QouQue,
You made your point.
Lets do some more research, and let the info soak in.
I bet there are several elecricians reading this forum
who will start thinking more openly about Alum,
pro and con.

Comments?
 
glene77is said:
We are obliged to determine the truly safe application ( >= NEC specs).
Click to expand...

I am curious how you determined AL is unsafe?

See where I am coming from ? :smile:

OK my own personal opinions follow, few facts, just how I see it.

If I could buy 12 and 10 AL NM Cable I would not use it on the job. Even if I believe I could do so safely my customer would not feel good with a hundred people telling them they are in a 'death trap'.

If I could buy 12 and 10 AL NM Cable I would not use it in my own home. I would not be comfortable with it as I only have a little experience with it and as far as I know all that experience is based on the older alloy make up.

That said, I use AL in sizes 8 and larger fairly often, easily 90% of the residential services, sub panel feeders, range feeders in this area are AL. Either pipe and wire or SE/SER cables. There is no problem at all with using AL conductors.

Most of my work is in large construction, most but not all of it is copper and when copper was going nuts we saw more AL.

A common trade off is AL feeders with 'Mac Adapters' installed with a hydraulic crimping tool at each end providing a copper conductor for the lug on the panel or breaker. Of course that lug is AL and often the bus bar and most all of the utilities conductors etc. :smile:
 
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