No alox

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QQ,

I drove up near your village, back in the 60's.

They are the only connector on the market right now that I know of that are al to al only rated. Tyco makes a crimp connector said:
I have some grails in the shelf, also.
I like grails.
They remind me that life and work can be grait !

Have you seen the note that there are about 500 views on this thread!
You started quite a stir on this topic.
Speaking of which, I think this topic
will continue to stir itself
in the minds of a large number of open minded electricians.

... :):):):):):):):)
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glene77is said:
Don,



I am glad your experience worked well.

I am on the cautious side of Fire Safety.

I just want to show this viewpoint,
and read what others have experienced.

So, I am pleased to read your comments as well.

...
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I am not aware of problems reported with the new products, however the installed base is very small as the problems with the older aluminum drove all branch circuit aluminum out of the market place shorty after the new products came into the market place. I can only speak for the jobs that I worked on, but I did run the service van for about 10 years after the job and there were no more service calls on the aluminum job than on the copper jobs with the exception of one building where the roof was blown off and there was interior water damage. In that building there were some problems with connections at wire nuts where water had gotten into them.
 
glene77is said:
Aronstein has a memo from U.L. which states that the Purple was 'passed' on the manufacturers own testing, not tested in house at UL. That may be why there is only one size of Purple. His testing, and mine validate that the Purple is no more effective than any other hard shell wire nut under the same conditions.
Click to expand...
And Ideal has a letter from UL that says otherwise. UL does not permit self testing and neither do any of the other NRTLs. That is a big difference between here and Europe where the CE label is all based on self testing and certification.

As a side note there is a move to force OSHA to accept CE label products. It is my opinion that this is not a good idea.
 
Don,

Thanks for commenting.
QQ got something good started.
iWire and others have carried it along, with some hard nosed questions.
I have not had to deal with this in years, and need to refresh my info.

I do hope that amongst the many viewers of these threads
there are open minded electricians who will view the subject with great caution.
On this subject, my primary concern in Fire Safety,
which to me is more important than exactly what NEC says.
NEC is about Fire Safety, don't get me wrong.
But NEC is a minimum (and required) standard.
It is our responsibility to determine the safety of the application,
beyond what NEC prescribes as a rule of installation.
When I believe there is a problem, I side on safety (above NEC rules).

Maybe, this thread will come to a rest, and be re-examined next year!

I have learned something, reading comments, experiences, rebuttals, etc.

I'll never live long enough to make all the mistakes myself,
so I try to at least listen to the experience of others.
 
glene77is said:
IMO, both the Alum and the Installer are factors.

Alum is a reactive metal, oxidizes quickly.
Sweaty hands on the freshly stripped wires will excellerate the oxidation.

Comments?
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In all of the years that I have been installing the stuff I can only remember seeing one or two out of hundreds actually install it correctly. (The way I was taught) They would either ring the conductor with a razor knife or not use paste at all and just wipe a fingerfull on the lugs/terms as they said just in case an inspector looks at it ha ha ha very funny.

This stuff is messy and it doesnt really do anything. I have heard them all. Myself included from 72 to 84 I was never formally trained just what I learned from my Dad and uncle.

We were throwing in miles of the stuff as the electric heat boom was in the 70s and al was cheap. We went to some seminars training us on sq footage and I live in a resort area where it is all small summer bungalos only inhabited 4 months a year. Electric heat was a no brainer back then and we made a lot of money installing it.

I remember houses were burning down left and right and they outlawed al wiring but it was never discussed with me I was just a kid. Now I see the customers who are looking to you for a solution to thier problem and I can honestly tell them al wire stinks.

A feeder properly crimped is no problem. I have installed many long distance high amperage underground services and have never ever known of a problem with any of my installs which have been in service over 20 yrs. I dont think it is luck that my work has never failed to my knowledge.

Shortcuts always end up being longcuts
 
quogueelectric said:
In all of the years that I have been installing the stuff I can only remember seeing one or two out of hundreds actually install it correctly.
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quogueelectric said:
I remember houses were burning down left and right and they outlawed al wiring but it was never discussed with me I was just a kid.
Click to expand...

Can you provide anything more then what you remember your perception was as a kid?

I am not asking anymore of you then I do of anyone else here, provide some references if you want to prove your point.
 
iwire said:
Can you provide anything more then what you remember your perception was as a kid?

I am not asking anymore of you then I do of anyone else here, provide some references if you want to prove your point.
Click to expand...
You are asking me to go back almost 40 yrs for what I think I have proved my point and only with the help of the publication that you tried to ridicule me for stating. I dont remember where other than I know I learned this formally in 1984 in a film reel from the manufacturer. What exactly do you plan on doing with said references?? Dr Phil??
 
In regards to utility wires, I thought that's about all they ever used was AL for high tension lines down to overhead drops or service laterals. I understand the NEC does not really apply to them, & they usually aren't the ones terminating AL in panels, but what about all the tap connections they make? I believe they use a crimp style connector, but I can't say I have ever seen them use any anti-oxidant on any tap connections. Any thoughts?
 
quogueelectric said:
...
I remember houses were burning down left and right and they outlawed al wiring but it was never discussed with me I was just a kid. ...
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When and where was aluminum wiring outlawed?....it has never been prohibited by the NEC. The 15 and 20 amp sized aluminum conductors dropped out of the market in the late 70's as a result of the poor performance of the old style aluminum conductors. There is not a very large installed base of the new alloy with the CO/ALR devices as the product was not on the market that long. It was not a safety or performance issue with the new products, just the fact that there were significantly more problems with the old aluminum products than with copper products and very few understood the differences between the old and new products. As with all electrical installation the skill of the installer plays a big part in the performance of the installation and I believe that is even more true with aluminum than with copper, but that does not mean that the aluminum is not a safe product to use.
 
QQ,

""they outlawed al wiring ""
You must mean in your locality, right?

Our local Code Enforcement, and AHJ, and EC people have some fixed guidelines,
which might as well be code.

You live in a nice neck of the peninsula, been near there many years back.
I worked in Nyack, Spring Valley, Piermont, in the 60's.
 
Don,

I think QQ overstates, sometimes. He probably meant his local area, local specs.
We have AHJ and EC rulings/guidelines that might as well be code, in that respect.

That said, in my mind ""safety"" and ""problems"" go hand in hand.
My interpretation of the 70's reduction in use of Alum in residentials is that the "safety" issues caused "problems", and expense in repairs, and perhaps some lose of reputation with the GC.

In terms of experience, however, the only thing I remember was that
our shop (only 21 trucks then) never used Alum. The ole man 'Jim' said he used copper because he was a 'real good electrician'. He never really explained it. But we never stocked Alum, even though he was a 'penny pincher' enough to lecture us as a group about the financial advantages of picking up stray condolets and scrap wire for recycling.

So, the past may be left to memory and interpretation.

When I get back to Memphis,
I will start researching this new alloy of Alum,
which I am sure exists, I just don't have the specs yet.
Perhaps Southwire will have some comparison chart.
I know several old electricians who may be able to refer me to an engineer.
 
glene77is said:
In terms of experience, however, the only thing I remember was that
our shop (only 21 trucks then) never used Alum. The ole man 'Jim' said he used copper because he was a 'real good electrician'. He never really explained it.
Click to expand...

He never explained it because I am willing to bet he could not, he just felt he was the better man for it.

That is the problem in a nut shell, many people just like to find a way to say "I am better then so and so because I always ...... "

In the case of AL many ECs have convinced themselves that anyone that uses AL is below them. It is just a way to pump ones own ego. (Something I am pretty familiar with. :D)

If there was absolute proof AL was better then copper there would still be a group that would never accept it.
 
iWire,
""
If there was absolute proof AL was better then copper
there would still be a group that would never accept it
""

You have got to be especially right on that one!

And on that same thought,
In these discussions, we will never really resolve the issue,
just bring it up for discussions, then see where that leads.

I hope that we (in general) will be
open to the new possibilities,
research those possibilities,
draw better conclusions.

When I get back to Memphis, I've got some reading to do.
You might find it useful to check my webside www.GeoCities.Com/glene77is
for an Alum Wire Debate link, which I honestly have not kept up.
I need to go back and see what has happened since then.

I try to be careful about presentations which are
overstated with emotion / interpretation / opinion, or
understated with facts / research.
Not always successful in that, but that's the aim.
 
iWire,

I was reading and came across sometime interesting from Inspect-NY.com,
taken from their files from the Consumer Product Safety Commision,
and print it here, even though I realize this is 'second sourcing'.
Quote/
CPSC research shows that
homes wired with aluminum wire manufactured before 1972
are 55 times more likely to have one or more connections
reach "Fire Hazard Conditions"
than are homes wired with copper.
"Post 1972" aluminum wire is also a concern.
Introduction of the aluminum wire "alloys" in 1972 time frame
did not solve most of the connection failure problems ...
/Quote

This makes me want to read further,
which is how I begin to resolve the Alum Wire problem.
 
glene77is said:
iWire,

I was reading and came across sometime interesting from Inspect-NY.com,
taken from their files from the Consumer Product Safety Commision,
Click to expand...

Always consider the source, Inspect NY has an axe to grind. The advertisers that support them have an interest in scarring the public.


CPSC research shows that
homes wired with aluminum wire manufactured before 1972
are 55 times more likely to have one or more connections
reach "Fire Hazard Conditions"
than are homes wired with copper.
"Post 1972" aluminum wire is also a concern.
Introduction of the aluminum wire "alloys" in 1972 time frame
did not solve most of the connection failure problems
Click to expand...
.


If I recall that document is from 1974.
 
iwire said:
Always consider the source, Inspect NY has an axe to grind.
Click to expand...

That may have come across wrong, I am not saying there is no good info at that site but my point is to look at any source of info with a suspicious mind.

Clearly that site pushes the AMP compression solution even though UL says a purple twister is OK and there are now small aluminum terminals made for pig tailing copper onto AL conductors.
 
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