no egc on receptacles in 1950 home

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peter d said:
Less work than a total rewire, easier to snake into the box than a new cable would be my guesses.
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Totally disagree, it's just as easy to use that #12 to pull some romex into the box. You have to run that ground wire back to the panel to do it correctly anyways. Just rewire... do the right thing. You're creating awkward hazardous situations for homeowners and future electricians if you just run a ground. Romex is cheap

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WarrMann said:
Totally disagree, it's just as easy to use that #12 to pull some romex into the box. You have to run that ground wire back to the panel to do it correctly anyways. Just rewire... do the right thing. You're creating awkward hazardous situations for homeowners and future electricians if you just run a ground. Romex is cheap

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too tired to get out codebook

but although we are no longer allowed to run to nearby water pipe, we don't always have to run green all the way back to panel, nearest receptacle or junction box
with large enough ground is still allowed

As to why run just a green when just as easy to run new romex:

Sometimes customer only needs a few receptacles grounded, often on several different circuits

And sometimes grounding existing overhead light fixtures is not practical, but circuits are run spiderweb from light fixture box

I'd rather do complete $12k rewire, but sometimes budget is more like $1.2k
 
WarrMann said:
Totally disagree, it's just as easy to use that #12 to pull some romex into the box. You have to run that ground wire back to the panel to do it correctly anyways. Just rewire... do the right thing. You're creating awkward hazardous situations for homeowners and future electricians if you just run a ground. Romex is cheap
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I fail to see how adding a ground is creating "awkward hazardous situations". It's the exact opposite, adding a ground is greatly improving safety.

Romex actually isn't that cheap anymore. But what's really expensive is the labor to install it.
 
readydave8 said:
too tired to get out codebook

but although we are no longer allowed to run to nearby water pipe, we don't always have to run green all the way back to panel, nearest receptacle or junction box
with large enough ground is still allowed

As to why run just a green when just as easy to run new romex:

Sometimes customer only needs a few receptacles grounded, often on several different circuits

And sometimes grounding existing overhead light fixtures is not practical, but circuits are run spiderweb from light fixture box

I'd rather do complete $12k rewire, but sometimes budget is more like $1.2k
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If the house is from the 50's you're going to have a hard time finding a ground anywhere other than the panel. 9 out of 10 times that useful ground in the jbox will also have hot and neutral you can use.

What's stopping them from just rewiring that one outlet, and abandoning or tapping the old wires in that box? I agree, no need for a $12k re wire.

The code is just the minimum standard. Ive done this upgrade countless times, and never found a good reason to not just replace the feed to the outlet.

Im staying firm on "romex is cheap" and scabbing a ground onto an outlet creates an "awkward and hazardous" situation.

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peter d said:
I fail to see how adding a ground is creating "awkward hazardous situations". It's the exact opposite, adding a ground is greatly improving safety.

Romex actually isn't that cheap anymore. But what's really expensive is the labor to install it.
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The labor should be about the same unless you're running the wire like the cable guy.

Romex works out to basically the same price as green #12. 12/2 is $75, a 500ft roll of #12 is $55. So the cost of wire just can't justify this method

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50s era houses usually have very small boxes that are overfilled anyway, darn near impossible to fish wire in even if they aren't overfilled, and somewhere between 6 and 12 120 volt branch circuits.

Running a ground to each receptacle is in my opinion inferior to installing GFCI, however many of those older panels are original, putting in a GFCI breaker in an FPE panel is like polishing a turd, and many of those receptacles are often spidered out from a light box, which would require GFCI receptacles in multiple locations.

All that said, I would rather spend the time and money putting in GFCI receptacles everywhere in the house then trying to fish a ground wire into every box from under the house. Also, back then, with the old cloth Romex, the holes in the top and bottom plates do not have any room whatsoever to slide a ground wire through... You're going to be laying on your back in a crawl space drilling holes and trying to fish wire into a 2 inch by 4 inch smurf safe, AKA a 50s era electrical box.

The problem with the gfcis is again box fill, and even the Slimline gfcis that have 25% depth than standard are going to be impossible to install into the boxes.

also, quite a few of those older boxes are face nailed into the stud with a heavy steel integral bracket rather than through the sides.

If I were going to do a job like this, I would take a sawzall with a metal blade, cut out the old boxes completely, fish the wire through the opening, and put in an old work-box with the proper volume. And still probably GFCI protect the circuits anyway.

Better also like or get used to using Wagos since the wires in the boxes are frequently too short to wrestle on wire nuts.

this is why most homeowners replace receptacles with the original two-prong devices, or erroneously install 3-prong ones with no ground or GFCI protection.

You're always going to wind up opening a can of worms, and it will never be as simple as just installing an EGC.
 
I agree with the poster that says Romex is cheap... In relation to labor, it is. A 50s era 1200 square foot rancher is going to have roughly two dozen 120v receptacles.

Make sure that when you're cutting out the old boxes that you do not chip the plaster skim coat. An oscillating / Fein tool would be great to use, however those box brackets are too thick even for their metal blades...

I realize that my previous post and this one are way more information than what the original poster asked for, however it all goes to giving an accurate price on such a job.

Also note the knockouts on those older boxes are very tough to remove from the inside out, you could easily crack the wall finish trying to remove them. They are not like a modern 1900 metal box where you can push the Knockouts out with your fingers.

I disagree that running a separate EGC creates a hazardous condition provided it is an effective and low impedance ground path. It does look a little weird, but there is nothing wrong with running a separate EGC... aside from all of the pitfalls I've mentioned above lol.
 
JFletcher said:
Running a ground to each receptacle is in my opinion inferior to installing GFCI, however many of those older panels are original, putting in a GFCI breaker in an FPE panel is like polishing a turd, and many of those receptacles are often spidered out from a light box, which would require GFCI receptacles in multiple locations.
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One alternative would be to mount one or two multi-gang boxes next to the panel, put in a nipple or two, and run each appropriate circuit's home run through a GFCI device.
 
peter d said:
You still haven't provided any actual support of this claim.
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Personal experience on I've hazardous and awkward. Have you ever tried figuring out if that ground wire you ran into that's not in a conduit or cable is actually going somewhere? I have, and found that it's just in the wall going nowhere. Can't fake a working 120v outlet.

Romex is cheap. See previous posts, and research prices. You might have to do some math, but youll find you're basically paying the same per foot of #12 conductor.

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JFletcher said:
I disagree that running a separate EGC creates a hazardous condition provided it is an effective and low impedance ground path. It does look a little weird, but there is nothing wrong with running a separate EGC... aside from all of the pitfalls I've mentioned above lol.
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"Provided its effective"....Its too easy to fake a ground, and done more often than anyone on this forum should care to see. I run into dozens a year where some guy has just tapped onto the neutral to fake the ground. That's definitely a pitfall.

We're all just giving our opinion here, and mine is that ive NEVER come across a situation where its beneficial, or cost effective to just run an EGC. Running a wire in a home is running a wire. You can't surface mount that egc all the way to the outlet. So run some romex and call it a job well done instead of just a job done.

Minimum standards are for minimum safety.

I think the NFPA should take the Arc Fault approach on this matter. "We don't care that its a pain in the ass and costs more, its the way its going to be done" said the NEC code panel member.

Again...my opinion.

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