no egc on receptacles in 1950 home

Status
Not open for further replies.
IMO the importance of grounding in this situation is typically overstated. If there is no egc, I am usually more concerned with the integrity of the conductor insulation and connections. Most resi things don't even have a ground prong.
 
IMO the importance of grounding in this situation is typically overstated. If there is no egc, I am usually more concerned with the integrity of the conductor insulation and connections. Most resi things don't even have a ground prong.
I don't agree with the grounding being overstated, but totally agree with the integrity if the old conductor insulation. Another reason to advocate for re wiring that outlet or circuit. Go team rewire

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
. . . ive NEVER come across a situation where its beneficial, or cost effective to just run an EGC.
Just because you haven't seen such a situation, or realized you were looking at such a situation, is not a general proof of concept.

The housing stock, and existing wiring methods therein, that are in my area, a Metro of three million, provides countless examples of situations where running a 2017 NEC 250.130(C)(4) discreet EGC is, in fact, a very practical and economic solution.

In the housing stock I work in, a branch circuit with a good EGC will almost always be easier to get to than the other choices (Grounding Electrode System or service panel.
 
Romex is cheap. See previous posts, and research prices. You might have to do some math, but youll find you're basically paying the same per foot of #12 conductor.

Fake math or "How to Lie With Statistics" (a great book, BTW).

If I can run one green #12 or one #12 NB-B (Romex) to complete a project, I consider cost per linear foot of product, because that is what I am buying to use in the project. Saying, hey I get two extra #12 conductors when buying Romex, does not enter into the math unless there is a need for the extra two conductors in the project.

Make the decision based on the job at the time. Not saying you were ever wrong in your decision to run new NM-B, I wasn't there. Just saying the argument of conductor cost is moot.;)
 
Fake math or "How to Lie With Statistics" (a great book, BTW).

If I can run one green #12 or one #12 NB-B (Romex) to complete a project, I consider cost per linear foot of product, because that is what I am buying to use in the project. Saying, hey I get two extra #12 conductors when buying Romex, does not enter into the math unless there is a need for the extra two conductors in the project.

Make the decision based on the job at the time. Not saying you were ever wrong in your decision to run new NM-B, I wasn't there. Just saying the argument of conductor cost is moot.;)
I agree, the cost of the conductor is a moot point. That's why i only said romex is cheap. Some guys on here got hung up on that one though, so im having some fun with it.

You're right about cost per linear foot, im well aware that concept. We're talking about 12 or 14 gauge romex here though. Its not like we're sizing conductors for a 30 ton rooftop unit where you better order the right length. Its romex, we install miles of that stuff every year. The difference comes down to probably less than a dollar for the whole outlet. So why not just upgrade. I don't subscribe to the penny pinching method for one off jobs like grounding a receptacle. I wouldnt do it in my old house, so i wouldnt recommend it anyone else's.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
The difference comes down to probably less than a dollar for the whole outlet. So why not just upgrade. I don't subscribe to the penny pinching method for one off jobs like grounding a receptacle. I wouldnt do it in my old house, so i wouldnt recommend it anyone else's.

I agree and think that in the long run you will come out better with new wiring.
 
Just because you haven't seen such a situation, or realized you were looking at such a situation, is not a general proof of concept.

The housing stock, and existing wiring methods therein, that are in my area, a Metro of three million, provides countless examples of situations where running a 2017 NEC 250.130(C)(4) discreet EGC is, in fact, a very practical and economic solution.

In the housing stock I work in, a branch circuit with a good EGC will almost always be easier to get to than the other choices (Grounding Electrode System or service panel.
I didn't think i was proving a concept. I stated that it was my opinion. And im sticking to it. I work in atlanta, we have quite the large and diverse housing stock as well. I generally find that the older the home the simpler the structure. Sure there's more plaster and the wood is harder to drill through, but just the same to find where to drill.

Again, these are my opinions. It's what i've been seeing for 15 years with my own eyes. I think anyone on this forum would be crazy to go off of one guy saying to do something cause he's never seen it any other way.

Given all the feed back ive recieved on my opinions here. The general consensus is that the re wire is the better option. Even if no one agrees with MY reasoning. The OP came here looking for opinions, and your gonna get them in a room full of electrician.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
"Provided its effective"....Its too easy to fake a ground, and done more often than anyone on this forum should care to see. I run into dozens a year where some guy has just tapped onto the neutral to fake the ground. That's definitely a pitfall.

We're all just giving our opinion here, and mine is that ive NEVER come across a situation where its beneficial, or cost effective to just run an EGC. Running a wire in a home is running a wire. You can't surface mount that egc all the way to the outlet. So run some romex and call it a job well done instead of just a job done.

Minimum standards are for minimum safety.

I think the NFPA should take the Arc Fault approach on this matter. "We don't care that its a pain in the ass and costs more, its the way its going to be done" said the NEC code panel member.

Again...my opinion.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

False grounds and bootleg jumpers to the neutrals are totally different animals than a properly run, NEC compliant, separate EGC.

Perhaps the problems you see are more endemic to your area. I can count on one hand the number of faked (short piece of green wire stuck through the back of the box going nowhere) receptacle grounds I have come across, and the number of bootleg ground jumpers to the neutral screw would total less than a dozen properties.

Three-prong outlets on 2 wire circuits though, probably the single most common electrical violation in older homes.

I agree with your points that it is a better job to replace the existing nonmetallic cable rather than just run a ground wire, and that the extra materials cost is not that high in a job of that scope.

Afci Breakers do not function any differently if there is a ground wire there or not. They don't really function at all, but I don't want to turn this thread into another 'afci breaker bashfest'.

We all do code minimum installs. There is nothing wrong with that. Where I think most electricians take their pride is in doing a neat, timely, or difficult install.

Nonmetallic cable for instance... Has to be stapled every four and a half foot, or within 12 in of a box with a clamp, 8in if it doesn't have an internal clamp.

Stapling it every foot is going way above the code, and is also a colossal waste of time. in that case it does not look neater, it looks like somebody who did not know the distances stapled it down.

You could run a # 8 ground wire to all of your receptacles back to the panel. Again, above code for 15 and 20 amp Branch circuits, but stupid. You cannot wrap number eight around the screw terminal of a receptacle or switch.

GFCI protected receptacles everywhere is coming. Putting them in where they are not required now, perhaps not so stupid, especially if I bought contractor packs of them versus buying them individually.

"Minimum standards are for minimum safety"... True in many aspects of life, however the NEC is a very notable exception. Building something to current code is not minimum safety, as the NEC is anywhere from mildly to extremely conservative when it comes to wire methods, overcurrent protection, etc.

you could build a house with all rigid metallic conduit all Outlets arc fault and ground-fault protected, high temperature wire, metal boxes, putty pads, explosion-proof enclosures, tamper-proof fasteners, etc etc etc and somebody is still going to kill themself through an electrically fueled glorious misadventure, like dumping half a pound of homemade nitroglycerin in a blender just to see what will happen.

Back to the original poster, yes you can run a separate egc to receptacles to provide grounding, however it is rarely that simple as my posts (which are dissertation length, I know) here and previously demonstrate.
 
My two cents would be to explore one typical receptacle first. If 95% of the receptacles are low mounted, wired through crawlspace with good access and not stapled in the wall then new romex is the best way to go. Old wire can pull string can pull new right through. Attic wiring is a step down in ease, but still doable. Personally, I'd rather run new wire than just grounds, but at least check how hard it will be first.
 
Respectfully... if I saw a single wire coming in and out of boxes, compliant or not it would look like a hack job to me.. like some terrible wiring jobs I've seen by home owners over the years..
Would that single wire have to meet the same wiring standards as nmb installation.... or could you use very small staples and secure it to the top of baseboard and paint it like you see telephone wire.

Where is the article for running single egc ??

It sounds so easy, "just snake a single wire".. how much easier is it really going to be??

I would still be incline to run 2 wire with ground....
 
OP asked a yes or no suggestion, ha! No such thing on this forum

The first four posts, in direct NEC response to the OP's question correctly answered it, "Yes." And the correct NEC citation was given.

THEN you started with "hazardous". You hijacked the thread from a NEC answer to your "opinion."

Post #5 was the end of the NEC thread.
 
The first four posts, in direct NEC response to the OP's question correctly answered it, "Yes." And the correct NEC citation was given.

THEN you started with "hazardous". You hijacked the thread from a NEC answer to your "opinion."

Post #5 was the end of the NEC thread.


Respectfully.. I think that's opinion
" my opinion is " it was answered and ended at post #2.. :D
 
False grounds and bootleg jumpers to the neutrals are totally different animals than a properly run, NEC compliant, separate EGC.

Perhaps the problems you see are more endemic to your area. I can count on one hand the number of faked (short piece of green wire stuck through the back of the box going nowhere) receptacle grounds I have come across, and the number of bootleg ground jumpers to the neutral screw would total less than a dozen properties.

Three-prong outlets on 2 wire circuits though, probably the single most common electrical violation in older homes.

I agree with your points that it is a better job to replace the existing nonmetallic cable rather than just run a ground wire, and that the extra materials cost is not that high in a job of that scope.

Afci Breakers do not function any differently if there is a ground wire there or not. They don't really function at all, but I don't want to turn this thread into another 'afci breaker bashfest'.

We all do code minimum installs. There is nothing wrong with that. Where I think most electricians take their pride is in doing a neat, timely, or difficult install.

Nonmetallic cable for instance... Has to be stapled every four and a half foot, or within 12 in of a box with a clamp, 8in if it doesn't have an internal clamp.

Stapling it every foot is going way above the code, and is also a colossal waste of time. in that case it does not look neater, it looks like somebody who did not know the distances stapled it down.

You could run a # 8 ground wire to all of your receptacles back to the panel. Again, above code for 15 and 20 amp Branch circuits, but stupid. You cannot wrap number eight around the screw terminal of a receptacle or switch.

GFCI protected receptacles everywhere is coming. Putting them in where they are not required now, perhaps not so stupid, especially if I bought contractor packs of them versus buying them individually.

"Minimum standards are for minimum safety"... True in many aspects of life, however the NEC is a very notable exception. Building something to current code is not minimum safety, as the NEC is anywhere from mildly to extremely conservative when it comes to wire methods, overcurrent protection, etc.

you could build a house with all rigid metallic conduit all Outlets arc fault and ground-fault protected, high temperature wire, metal boxes, putty pads, explosion-proof enclosures, tamper-proof fasteners, etc etc etc and somebody is still going to kill themself through an electrically fueled glorious misadventure, like dumping half a pound of homemade nitroglycerin in a blender just to see what will happen.

Back to the original poster, yes you can run a separate egc to receptacles to provide grounding, however it is rarely that simple as my posts (which are dissertation length, I know) here and previously demonstrate.


Gosh I agree with so much of that! :thumbsup:
 
Some good info here for me as I have one of those old homes with plaster and no grounds (in some places). One of these days I do plan to re-wire. Built slab on ground so that makes it harder. Never worked much with romex. Never would have thought to sawzall old box out. Darn sure can't see how to staple new romex in, or even pull from box to box inside the room. Original install has those really heavy duty staples that you aren't going to pull out.

I suppose the only sane and easy way to do it is cut the wall open and put 1/4" drywall over original plaster. I really don't like drywall and all that taping and painting is time and effort I'd like to avoid. Not to mention bathroom and kitchen are tiled. Rather avoid that and if I'm going that far way more inclined to use EMT or at least MC.
 
You're looking at it wrong. Rewire. Snake. New boxes. Cut and patching. Abandon old boxes and wire.
Create a new thread for opinions and tips maybe
 
You're looking at it wrong. Rewire. Snake. New boxes. Cut and patching. Abandon old boxes and wire.
Create a new thread for opinions and tips maybe

but gee, what about the money you can make by stripping the wire and recycling it??? Leaving it in the walls for someone else to make the money from? Is it code compliant to leave the wire in the walls?
 
but gee, what about the money you can make by stripping the wire and recycling it??? Leaving it in the walls for someone else to make the money from? Is it code compliant to leave the wire in the walls?

If you rewire, why would anyone ever come along and remove the old wire? They wouldn't even know it was there if the walls/ceilings were repaired correctly.
Nothing in the code to prevent you from leaving the old wire in place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top