No ground

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Gaffen99

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new jersey
If a customer gave you a sconce to hang, and it has no ground wire or a way to connect a ground, would you install it? By the way, there is no way to connect it to the box either, it is to be hung by a screw and just cover the front of the box with the base. It looks very old and probably no UL listing.
What say you?
 
When it's hanging on that screw, will it have exposed conductive surfaces?
 
I've dealt with a lot of hand made "artistic" light fixtures of all stripes over the years.

Exposed metal, I'd HAVE to bond the EGC to it.
 
Gaffen99 said:
If a customer gave you a sconce to hang, and it has no ground wire or a way to connect a ground, would you install it? By the way, there is no way to connect it to the box either, it is to be hung by a screw and just cover the front of the box with the base. It looks very old and probably no UL listing.
What say you?
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Could a ground wire be soldered to the sconce frame?

Is there an EGC in the box or is the box grounded?

No ground path = no install for me. Your install is complicated by the fact the sconce just hangs in front of the jbox; I wouldnt consider that covered. Notching or drilling a coverplate for the wires to pass through, with the connections inside the box, is also kinda hinky.

Closest Ive come to such a situation was last year, I had to remove a sconce light on a porch for the carpenter to replace some rotted board. When I got it down, I saw the lamp socket badly corroded and the internal wiring had insulation flaked off exposing a mess of green copper. Told the HO I wouldnt rehang it as it was patently unsafe. She understood and was glad I found the problem and brought it to her attention.

Even if your sconce looks mechanically sound, I personally would pass on the job.
 
Ill be honest: I have hung quite a few artisan/old/homemade/non UL/all metal parts not bonded light fixtures in my career and probably will continue to do so. However I will make sure the wire and socket are in good shape and installed properly and if not I will tell the client it needs some work.
 
al hildenbrand said:
I've dealt with a lot of hand made "artistic" light fixtures of all stripes over the years.

Exposed metal, I'd HAVE to bond the EGC to it.
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As required by 410.42

JFletcher said:
Could a ground wire be soldered to the sconce frame?

Is there an EGC in the box or is the box grounded?

No ground path = no install for me. Your install is complicated by the fact the sconce just hangs in front of the jbox; I wouldnt consider that covered. Notching or drilling a coverplate for the wires to pass through, with the connections inside the box, is also kinda hinky.

Closest Ive come to such a situation was last year, I had to remove a sconce light on a porch for the carpenter to replace some rotted board. When I got it down, I saw the lamp socket badly corroded and the internal wiring had insulation flaked off exposing a mess of green copper. Told the HO I wouldnt rehang it as it was patently unsafe. She understood and was glad I found the problem and brought it to her attention.

Even if your sconce looks mechanically sound, I personally would pass on the job.
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If there is no egc in the box and if the customer wants the fixture that badly, it might be able to be installed per the 410.44 exception(3)- Which allows gfci in lieu of egc for replacement fixtures where no egc exists in the box/ckt- the op could do a gfci cb, or can find rec / put in a blank gfci before the fixture. But in light of the fixtures age, probable lack of UL listing, mounting etc- they really need to forget about that fixture and maybe get a modern reproduction that looks similiar.
 
The box has a ground being as I installed the box. But the light doesn't seem to be safe to me, and I don't know if I can put a ground on it. I just don't need this thing biting me later. Some one said solder, maybe I'll try that.
 
jumper said:
OP said it was probably not listed, so I would cite this and walk away.

410.6 Listing Required.
All luminaires, lampholders, and
retrofit kits shall be listed.
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Local ordinance can provide exceptions to that blanket statement in 410.6. It won't hurt to inquire.

Here in Minnesota there is a State wide allowance for one of a kind creations that are not mass produced for resale.

The statute initially focused on large custom one of a kind manufacturing machines that were built for only one client. One of a kind light fixtures, again, built only for one client, were included in the Statewide exception.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Local ordinance can provide exceptions to that blanket statement in 410.6. It won't hurt to inquire.

Here in Minnesota there is a State wide allowance for one of a kind creations that are not mass produced for resale.

The statute initially focused on large custom one of a kind manufacturing machines that were built for only one client. One of a kind light fixtures, again, built only for one client, were included in the Statewide exception.
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From a please the local constituents perspective I can see the logic.

From a safety perspective I think it defies any logic.
 
iwire said:
From a safety perspective I think it defies any logic.
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Safety can create a burden that can impede progress. . . that is the challenge, as I see it.

Minnesota's statute gives the AHJ, when examining a one-of-a-kind assembly, the permission to accept as is, ask for a PE's acceptance, or ask for an actual NRTL listing. The key is the situational evaluation of a person, or people, rather than application of broad brush language in statute that attempts to be fair for ALL situations.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Safety can create a burden that can impede progress. . . that is the challenge, as I see it.

Minnesota's statute gives the AHJ, when examining a one-of-a-kind assembly, the permission to accept as is, ask for a PE's acceptance, or ask for an actual NRTL listing. The key is the situational evaluation of a person, or people, rather than application of broad brush language in statute that attempts to be fair for ALL situations.
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All I can say Al, is that a VA or NC inspector would never buy that, MD is messed up and I cannot state such ( I hate this stupid state's parochial rules!!!!).
 
I hand it back and tell them to take it to a lighting store and have it rewired unless it is a very easy job and not an expensive fixture.
 
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