No lights on SABC rule

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Fist off houses are not wired for the individual they are wired for the general public.
Even custom homes are often sold within the first few years.

If you buy a new home (even a little cracker box) you can be sure there is a certain amount of power available for use in the kitchen area. 2 small appliance circuits.

Bedrooms are not required to be wired for hair dryer because the bathroom is.

Living space is not required to be wired for space heaters because these are not allowed as a primary heating source. Most homes either have central heat or at least baseboard heaters.

A bedroom is not required to be wired for a window AC unit. If it work it works, if not you are out of luck.

The reason for 2 small appliance circuits is there was the introduction of a lot of new kitchen appliances that had not been on the market before. Toaster ovens and microwaves, electric coffee pots and crock pots and a whole bunch of mixers and blenders and bread makers and whatever.

I still remember the coffee pot on the range and watching it perk.
 
growler said:
Fist off houses are not wired for the individual they are wired for the general public.
Even custom homes are often sold within the first few years.
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And the behavior of the general public is predictable- most people you know use a toaster and coffee maker, have a washer, TV ect. The sequence and combination in which they are used is also well predicable.

If you buy a new home (even a little cracker box) you can be sure there is a certain amount of power available for use in the kitchen area. 2 small appliance circuits.


Bedrooms are not required to be wired for hair dryer because the bathroom is.
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And why is the bathroom wired for hair dryers? Because its known most people use them in there.

Living space is not required to be wired for space heaters because these are not allowed as a primary heating source. Most homes either have central heat or at least baseboard heaters.
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Of course, so code does not have to worry as much regarding auxiliary heat.



A bedroom is not required to be wired for a window AC unit. If it work it works, if not you are out of luck.
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In NYC where a window or through wall AC units are a high probability, a 20amp circuit is actually mandated.

The reason for 2 small appliance circuits is there was the introduction of a lot of new kitchen appliances that had not been on the market before. Toaster ovens and microwaves, electric coffee pots and crock pots and a whole bunch of mixers and blenders and bread makers and whatever.

I still remember the coffee pot on the range and watching it perk.
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That is correct, and they knew those appliances in typical use often approached most of the available capacity in a circuit, hence the restriction to low level loads like clocks, fridges, and gas ovens.
 
ActionDave said:
I am clear on what I am saying, the NEC is better when it does not get involved in design issues. You want to walk on both sides of the fence.
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Because to be frank there are special cases where the NEC should incorporate a minute amount of design. The SABC IMO is and should be one of those cases. The NEC has had mandatory dedicated circuits for decades well before the bureaucratic take over- and there is indeed good reason for that. The rest I think both of us can see eye to eye.
 
mbrooke said:
Because to be frank there are special cases where the NEC should incorporate a minute amount of design. The SABC IMO is and should be one of those cases. The NEC has had mandatory dedicated circuits for decades well before the bureaucratic take over- and there is indeed good reason for that. The rest I think both of us can see eye to eye.
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And now we have floor recepts required in meeting rooms. Carry on.
 
KnightPower said:
Over the sink light everytime. No ties on MWBCs either.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
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Neither one of those are a hanging offense imo.


growler said:
If you buy a new home (even a little cracker box) you can be sure there is a certain amount of power available for use in the kitchen area. 2 small appliance circuits.

The reason for 2 small appliance circuits is there was the introduction of a lot of new kitchen appliances that had not been on the market before. Toaster ovens and microwaves, electric coffee pots and crock pots and a whole bunch of mixers and blenders and bread makers and whatever.
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^^^^
This was the substantiation in the '50s from FWIR.

They wanted to ensure that there were at least 2 circuits available to meet demand imposed by those appliances. A combination of a couple of those items could load up a circuit pretty good- now say there are a 3 or so of those old style 2 or 4 bulb light fixtures powered off the same circuit, and the ho decided to use 100 watt bulbs......Breaker trips, HO is in the dark, boiling water on the stove, still glowing hot plate on the counter.....
 
mbrooke said:
40 years latter, sadly :( But Id argue its more from the agenda push products then intended design.
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The completely ridiculous meeting rm rule cited by ActionDave is nothing more than a foray off into a place the code doesn't need to be- mandated overengineering at its finest.
 
user 100 said:
The completely ridiculous meeting rm rule cited by ActionDave is nothing more than a foray off into a place the code doesn't need to be- mandated overengineering at its finest.
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I agree- and like many to only push products. EEs can't even back feed transformers any more (unless "listed") :(
 
ActionDave said:
And now we have floor recepts required in meeting rooms. Carry on.
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For many years receptacles have been required for show windows . Some of them never get used.

What was the reason? To keep tenants from running extension cords above drop ceiling to window signs.

I have never complained about the requirement because we get paid to install them.


I don't know if there is a big need for floor receptacles but someone must think so. I would assume it's so people don't trip over extension cords or power cords.

We don't pay for this stuff so why should we complain?
 
user 100 said:
The completely ridiculous meeting rm rule cited by ActionDave is nothing more than a foray off into a place the code doesn't need to be- mandated overengineering at its finest.
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I would assume that this has something to do with all the electronic equipment used in todays meetings. They wouldn't want extension cords in pathway espectially during a fire. That same room also gets emergency lighting.

I would think that Fire Marshals were finding cords run to power equipment during meetings. Probably at the Fire Marshal's Convention.
 
mbrooke said:
Why #12? That sucks to work with. :sick: But to each his own, I respect that :)
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Just what we did on new construction at the first place I worked for, and has mostly stuck with me. Not that I won't ever put receptacles on 15 amp circuits, but I usually don't.

If you have one cable in/ one cable out as much as possible in your outlet boxes - it isn't really all that big of a deal for me.

They guys that put each bedroom on a 15 amp circuit are installing 4 circuits to 4 bedrooms. I might be running one 15 amp lighting circuit (which may have a bathroom light or other adjacent rooms lights on it as well) and maybe two 20 amp circuits for receptacles, in some cases even just one 20 amp circuit, or two home runs that can be easily separated into two separate circuits down the road if needed. Been doing this before AFCI's even came into play, now with the cost of those it is even more likely to make two 20 amp home runs to those bedrooms but put them on one breaker until someday down the road we decide to separate into two circuits.
 
mbrooke said:
Then your saying you would put up with tripping 2 times a day? Sure you could move the dryer to stop it- but who wants to use the toaster in the living room or bath room?
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You don't know your fellow humans very well I guess, some probably want to use the toaster or coffee maker in the shower.

ActionDave said:
And now we have floor recepts required in meeting rooms. Carry on.
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Good design practice, but why does it need to be required? Later post mentioned tripping on cords - pendants from ceiling would avoid that situation, may not be as desirable but that is not what NEC is about.

growler said:
For many years receptacles have been required for show windows . Some of them never get used.

What was the reason? To keep tenants from running extension cords above drop ceiling to window signs.

I have never complained about the requirement because we get paid to install them.


I don't know if there is a big need for floor receptacles but someone must think so. I would assume it's so people don't trip over extension cords or power cords.

We don't pay for this stuff so why should we complain?
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Yet there is inner displays in stores all the time that have extension cords running above drop ceilings to get to the display.

Portable neon signs seem to be the most common item I see in windows that needs power anymore, especially beer signs and t "open" signs.
 
kwired said:
That is what I typically do as well and why the rule sort of doesn't really matter to me anyway. I usually put all lighting on 15 amp circuits and nearly all receptacle outlets on 20 amp circuits.
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kwired said:
Just what we did on new construction at the first place I worked for, and has mostly stuck with me. Not that I won't ever put receptacles on 15 amp circuits, but I usually don't.
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I used 20 amp circuits for receptacles for years. There were even areas here where #14 NM was not allowed.

Now I go in new houses that cost a million bucks and they all have 15 amp circuits to general use receptacles. They don't seem to have any problems with it.

I still pig tail and not back stab but I'm on the #14 NM band wagon now. It does seem a lot easier to work with.
 
kwired said:
Yet there is inner displays in stores all the time that have extension cords running above drop ceilings to get to the display.
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That's why we have fire inspections by the Fire Marshal's office. Some areas are better at catching things like that.

If they do catch it they have the power to make sure it's changed.
 
growler said:
That's why we have fire inspections by the Fire Marshal's office. Some areas are better at catching things like that.

If they do catch it they have the power to make sure it's changed.
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I don't get how Fire Marshal works around here.

They usually inspect new public access buildings and additions to them of just about any type or when an existing place opens with a new owner. A small hospital I used to do frequent work for seemed to have Fire Marshal visits frequently, and so did nursing homes. School buildings - many have conditions that go unnoticed, and apparently they don't go in them on any regular basis, only when there is new construction/additions or they receive a complaint from any anonymous person about safety concerns in the facility. You would thing a school would be a place where they would have an annual inspection or maybe even at least every 2 to 5 years have a general inspection and point out things that maybe have changed over the years.

A local school in recent years did go through that anonymous person contacting Fire Marshal, and though most things found were somewhat minor, there was a lot of them. Others were things that were in compliance 50 even 90 years ago but are not anymore. Regular inspections at least every few years maybe at least gives the school board a chance to review what is an issue and plan to make changes instead of having to spend millions all at once to bring everything up to code should some unexpected inspection come up like it did.

There were some cases of "if you do put in the sprinkler system, you won't have to do this or that".
 
kwired said:
You would thing a school would be a place where they would have an annual inspection or maybe even at least every 2 to 5 years have a general inspection and point out things that maybe have changed over the years.
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I said that's why we have a Fire Inspections. I didn't say the system actually works.

I asked the maintenance guys at a school if the Fire Marshall wouldn't write them up for having paper goods and desk stored in their electrical rooms. They said that yes they get written up every year.

If they ever do have a fire I think there will be a lot of finger pointing.

You are right and they do better at health care facilitiies. I think it's easier to scare them into compliance (private industry).
 
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